well people say it's an advantage in college admissions if your a minority and applies big time to hispanic and african-american students but almost never the asians. why? we are minorities too. hispanics = brown, african = black, asians = yellow. don't colleges understand we are minorities too? colleges are racist, period .... plus they got a seperate question box for ethnicity/race asking "Are you Latino/Hispanic" wtf is this BS? america is screwed up.

Yeah.. There's no "I prefer not to answer" either.

You're (a) not required to answer that question, ( Asians are starting to become majority in some schools, © Blacks and Hispanics are more likely than not to be at a disadvantage compared to Asians.

Hmmm... I don't think it's racism.

Affirmative action was created so that historically underrepresented minorities in work and school places could be hired/accepted in order to help them break a cycle of poverty. The justification for affirmative action was that underrepresented minorities lacked the resources to succeed (well-funded schools, an environment that helped breed success, buying SAT Prep Books/Hiring SAT Tutors) and that should be accounted for.

If you look at charts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income2.png

The lower the income, the lower the SAT. This is probably a result of lower income people living in schools that do not encourage students to seek post-secondary opportunities, and the lack of availability of study materials/hire tutors that may wealthier suburban (middle to upper middle class) families have the opportunity of doing.

Furthermore, the environment which students grew up in cannot be neglected. One who succeeds in an upper middle class neighborhood on average has less to overcome than one who succeeds in a lower class neighborhood.

Therefore, college admission committees/prospective employers look at the circumstances of the success rather than the success itself.

Also, one must consider what college admissions committees desire when building an entering freshman class. They want diversity (Obvious diversity like race and gender, but also diversity of skills, experiences, life-stories) and in order to draw from the latter type of diversity, one has to dip into different demographics. If a college were to build a class based just on the top SAT scores and GPA, the result would be a predominately upper middle class-upper class freshman class with less diversity in life experiences than if the top students from each demographic class were selected.

And with affirmative action, they don't select underqualified students to be in their class. Often, (especially for Ivy League and comparable schools) there are many admissible students but with very limited spots. So it doesn't mean that those schools are filling their classes with unqualified Hispanics, Native Americans, or African-Americans.

The example I use to defend affirmative action is myself being Asian. (While my story does not ring true with all Asians, I feel like it gives an accurate portrayal of most Asian children). The first thing is that Asians who have immigrated here (particularly from Korea, Vietnam, China etc.) were of the upper middle-upper class in their respective countries. Many Koreans who came here including my parents were students (who had money and education). Many Vietnamese that came here are South Vietnamese Army Officers/soldiers and their descendants. (Hence the people with money and education relative in their country)

So to begin with the Asians in this country as a whole are self-selected, wealthier, and more intelligent/educated. This is coupled that within our cultures, education is viewed very importantly (as Confucianism preaches). Therefore, we are in situations that are favorable for educational success.

We as Asians I don't think should view affirmative action as unfair when in general we have had many other advantages (particularly in school) based on our parents and our culture.

Although I concede that affirmative action has its problems. Most of which is that racial diversity does not always correspond with socio-economic diversity. There are rich black people who have had every advantage in life and there are poor Asians/whites who have been disadvantaged in everyway in life. So I think affirmative action is adapting to how society changes, and is doing a good job.

And besides it's not like the Ivy League/comparable students reject all Asians... there is a very high percentage of Asians that still go to Ivy League schools =P, and some schools are legally not allowed to discriminate on basis of race (such as the UC schools)

So, in the end... I think as Asians, we will be okay.

Haha my really long rant sorry about that.

Yes, affirmative action. Although I personally do not think it is fair, it's just how it goes. Colleges also try to be diverse but at the same time make money from richer applicants who will donate to them after they graduate.

Also, it is not racist to ask for your race.

Also, colleges and universities don't give an "advantage" to all minorities. They favor under-represented minorities, and not over-represented minorities like asians.

I don't agree with affirmative action, because we did not chose what color we were born, our academic performance are based on our individuality not our race.

I know what you mean!
not fair at all

lol asians always use the race card when they don't get what they want.
"I didn't get extra cookies with mine? They're racist!"

Since I'm Mexican I'm going to add my two cents. Since your Asian, you (probably) don't understand how it is for Mexicans. Yes, there are MANY scholarships for Mexicans/Latinos but many of us are not up to standard. I'm positive that it was like that at some point for Asians too, here in the US. At my school, all the honors classes are filled up with Caucasians---there is only a very small amount of Mexicans/Latinos (like 3). When ever a girl gets pregnant, its usually a Mexican girl. When theirs a fight, its usually Mexicans or Blacks fighting. The list goes on. It's very hard to be of a Hispanic minority right now since nobody expects anything from you. With Asians, its usually your Asian and people assume your smart. As for Mexicans/Latinos its, get away, your probably in a gang or are going to steal something. Sadly, usually true.
But, seriously, you don't really have to worry. Most Hispanics don't try hard in school since their parents are not educated. Its hard to rise up when your parents immigrated here with less than a middle school education. Its a fact that most people work in the fields in Mexico. Therefore, when they come to the US the only opportunity they are given to work in is in the fields again. How much income does that get you? Not very much. My family made 700 income 2007 and 3000 2008, no I'm not joking. And that's how it is for most Mexicans. Can you imagine how it is not being able to afford a measly cap and gown? Having NO chance at college unless you get scholarships? Most of our parents can't even afford to put food on the table. They don't really care if you get into college, not because they don't love you, but because all that they can think about, at this point, is the bare necessities. You don't really see Asians in these situations (while, yes, of course they do exist).
I'm not going to go on ranting since you probably don't care but the main point is us Latino minorities don't have the same opportunities as most Asians.

Its NOT unfair, so deal with it. If you want the upper hand then study harder and be the best so you don't have these types of worries.

wtf? and you probably dont understand what its like to be asian.


Just because a good number of Latinos and African Americans decide to not work hard and school and get pregnant, doesnt mean Latinos or African Americans as a minority are any more deserving of a scholarship or a seat in a top school.


This is such a bunch of bull. A lot of asians come from uneducated families but it IS NOT an excuse to not work hard. Stop trying to act as though Hispanics are more deserving of scholarships or anything because Hispanics are supposedly worse off. There are so many Asian immigrants who come to America who no money AT ALL so why are you trying to suggest that it's so much harder to be Hispanic than it is to be Asian?


It IS unfair. Why should anyone who works hards not gain admission to the school of their choice while some "impoverished minority" that DOESNT work hard get admission through some affirmative action program?

That being said:
At OP, if you think this affirmative action for Latinos and African Americans is bad, you should take a look at the admission rates for rich white kids who apply to top tier schools through legacy.

Its not racism per se but that doesnt make it any less wrong.

There is so much ignorance in this topic that it makes me want to puke.

There are stereotypes, but there are also deviations from those stereotypes. So please, refrain from using such (or the vice-versa) as "justifications" for your arguments.

More importantly, of course colleges are racist, not that they are to any extreme extent. Who isn't racist? Show me someone who truly has no racial preferences or biases and I will...... I'm not even going to go there, because it will never happen. People are racist by nature: You can't argue with proof on a subconscious level.

Colleges don't just randomly decide "Oh I'm gonna make it easier for these people, but not these people because they're ugly." They clearly tried to thoroughly analyze by using pure historical research. And you may try to refute this by talking about the "elite white kids," but there is obviously some business based motivation. Who are you, who were only exposed to a mere portion of the world, to have a general understanding of racism throughout the whole world? There are people with JOBS that study the damn subject their whole lives. I'm positive they have a better understanding than you.

This goes to the people who are blatantly ignorant. Peace~

No, I do not understand what its like to be Asian because I'm not Asian
I never said that Hispanics should not have to work hard to get scholarships. I probably just worded wrong, but what I meant was that college admissions officers are more surprised when a person of Hispanic origin does work hard and does really good in school, as opposed to a person of Asian descent.
It's hard to be Hispanic or Asian. Or Black. Or any other minority. It mostly depends on your parents financial status and educational background, and, in my opinion, Asian parents are usually more educated than Hispanic parents.

Life isn't fair. But I never said that its alright to give a Hispanic that did not work hard at all/ has bad grades etc. a scholarship instead of giving it to the Asian who did work hard. That will probably not happen anyways. A prestigious, selective school would not compromise their reputation just because the person is of Hispanic descent.

not really. where i'm from, most of the Asian immigrants have not even completed elementary school.
If that's your opinion, fine. I think that Asian immigrants arent any smarter or dumber than Hispanic ones.
and even if you are right, we shouldnt give any sort of priority to any minority group just because one minority group has "less educated parents"



For scholarships, maybe not. But for a place at their school, it happens.You'd be surprised at how desperate some schools can be to diversify their student population through "higher education affirmative action programs." That being said, not that many people get into these programs per school but they really add up when you have so many colleges everywhere.

This is my personal opinion as a Korean-American.

There are disadvantaged minorities, they mostly compromise of African-Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanic-Americans. There are Asian-Americans that are disadvatanged (in general). Hmong-Americans, Cambodian-Americans, and, Laotian-American. But, affirmative action is not a pure racial exercise. It also accounts for socio-economic status so that the rich privileged black kid does not get an advantage compared to a poor Chinese-American kid from the South Side of Chicago.

But I think that the point of affirmative action is too often lost in the course of the discussion. The American Dream is often thought of something as a pure product of hard work of the individuals. However, there is an equal responsibility by society to make sure that equal opportunity is available to all. Part of this is accounting for individual circumstances when looking at the achievements of people. Affirmative action does not aim to accept or give preferential treatment to unqualified underrepresented minorities. Instead, affirmative action aims to allows their potential to be discovered in highly skilled environments.

Also, while I understand the difficulties of being Asian-American, the constant struggles of fitting in and of racial identity in general, I can safely say that my credentials should not be treated equally as those who were born into more difficult circumstances and overcame them to succeed.

For example, I have a 33 on my ACT, and I do well academically. These are things I am highly proud of, however I have grown up in an extremely privileged upper-middle class Asian-American that honestly has not had to overcome a lot. Both my parents were there to constantly encourage me, and I never had to worry about anything else besides doing well in school and getting a high score on a standardized test.

However, take someone who got a 33 from Harlem, and they do well academically. They had a single mother, lived off food stamps. They lived in a neighborhood where college and academics is not held in high importance.

If they have the same credentials as I do, then I believe that they should be valued higher than me in terms of college admissions.

^ yes thats very true.
but as i said, "Why should anyone who works hard not gain admission to the school of their choice while some "impoverished minority" that DOESNT work hard get admission through some affirmative action program?"

key point impoverished minority that DOESNT work hard.
my cousin actually went to a pretty good college. she basically worked her bum off to get in. she ended up rooming with this african american girl who claimed she didnt study for the SAT and got like a 1400/2400. uh.
and before you ask, it wasnt like a one time thing. the other kids that got in through this higher education affirmative action program did pretty poorly in hs too.

edit dang i made a lot of typos.
2100 -> 2400, university -> college
V not umich. small private liberal arts college.

I agree with you on that, however I don't know how prevalent that is now. For example, the University of Michigan determines admits by a point system. At one point, you got points for race (underrepresented minority) which obviously is not fair as it is way too general. However, a Supreme Court ruling ended this practice and ended any admission to universities that is primarily race-based.

Just out of curiosity, did your cousin attend the University of Michigan?

Colleges aren't racist. I'm Asian and got into top universities with grades that weren't perfect in comparison to my peers. My hardships made me stand out, and Affirmative Action had nothing to do with anything.

Just because certain people aren't exactly good at what you're good at that (see: grades), it doesn't mean they're not worthy of admissions to a top college. Some people are well-rounded students, some take tests better, others have valuable life experience, and if the passion comes through the application, the GPA isn't all that's considered. Besides, how many of you have cheated to get your good grades?

Furthermore, with affirmative action, Asians are NOT competing with Latinos and African Americans-- they are competing with other Asians. So if you have anyone to blame for your rejection, it's the fact that other Asian applicants had what admission officers saw as a stronger application.

Stop whining about it. You would really rather have things handed to you on a golden platter? Just work for the acceptance instead of being a baby. Asians are not the MINORITY in college...have you seen how saturated the UC schools are with Asians? Some have more Asians than whites..

Thank you.

And on a sidenote, Cal better take down 'SC when they meet.

Yea, affirmative action is a load of mini cooper.
Things should be based on socio-ecomonic levels

^yup. and legacy is even more bull.



sorry but thats a load of bullhonky. its not that things should be handed to you on a different plate. its that seats, scholarships, and opportunities are very limited.
and lol at asians not being the minority in college. UC schools are just a mere fraction of the total number of universities throughout the US. how many schools are really "saturated with asians" in comparison with schools with a <5 percent population of asians.



its not like well roundedness takes that much precedence over your grades.
your grades were probably not perfect as you said but they were probably not completely mediocre. they obviously were acceptable by the universities' standards.
like if your SAT grades are at the 20th national percentile, do you think universities will care that you if you're ultra passionate about something?
would you ever see harvard admit someone with a 1100 and a 66 average because they've had "valuable life experience"?
and how well rounded is someone really if they're not well rounded in academics?

I definitely agree with V12 juice, but it's not just the fact that Asians are teeming at the UC's (dear god... everywhere you look =P )

The Asian- American community makes up about 5 percent of the United States population.

But all the Ivy League Schools (with the exception of Dartmouth and Yale) have 3 times that number (and not that Dartmouth and Yale are not close either)

Harvard at 16 percent Asian-Americans
Yale at 14 percent Asian-American
U Penn at 17 percent Asian-American
Princeton at 14 percent Asian-American
Cornell at 16 percent Asian-American
Columbia at 18 percent Asian-American
Dartmouth at 13 percent Asian American
Brown University at 15 percent Asian-American
Johns Hopkins is at 25 percent Asian-American
Caltech at 38 percent Asian-American

These numbers tell us that we as Asians will be okay.

But I think we are in agreement that putting in unqualified people is wrong, but I guess where is the evidence of this?
Not to say it doesn't happen, but if is it a widespread problem?

I always thought it was for a demographic thing...

I never said grades didn't take precedence. I'm saying college admissions consider other things along with the grades. I had an Indian friend get into Harvard with a 3.8 weighted, but she had ran a charity in Sri Lanka to build homes for tsunami stricken families. I had a Korean friend with a 4.5 weighted and 2200+ on the SATs who was rejected to the same school. Weighing both-- I'd take the first Asian if I was an admissions officer. That's a case of two Asians where lower grades trumped higher grades-- and no one screamed bloody murder that the first Asian got in because of affirmative action because her grades were lower. Now replace that Indian girl with an African American and everyone screams affirmative action.

Universities don't strictly base it on grades, they base it on impact as well, and they have the right to choose what standards they admit their students based on. For example-- art schools will base admissions on art portfolios. Some liberal arts colleges have completely disregarded using the SATs in their admissions because they think SATs are biased towards socio-economic advantages and how good one's SAT prep class is. If ivy leagues want to admit African Americans they think will make a better impact on the world within the standards of their universities a few points under Asian American applicants-- it's not racism. If universities were racist against Asians-- they would admit NO Asians.

Please show me a Harvard admit who scored 1100 and had a 66 average. Of course I wouldn't admit someone to Harvard with those stats-- Harvard has never admitted someone with a D average and an 1100 on their SATs thus making your question completely irrelevant. I'm saying amongst elite students with similar stats-- they will choose to take the person they feel is a better fit. They do interview people, you know.

um no i never said they were racist towards asians so wtf. but is it not possible for them to be biased towards a minority?
the harvard 66 avg thing was just to say that no matter how well rounded you are in life exp. if your grades suck (not like asian fail but close to ACTUAL fail) then you are most likely INADMISSIBLE through normal non affirmative action standards. jeezus how stupid of you to ask me to show you a purely hypothetical person with 66 avg who got into harvard.

"Now replace that Indian girl with an African American and everyone screams affirmative action."
wtf no. im saying not just african americans. if an asian got in with mediocre grades, i would still be screaming bloody murder. if they were white, i would still be screaming bloody murder. there was a black kid from my hs who got into cornell ed with asian fail grades but i wasnt like wtf.
im saying those programs where seats are given to impoverished minorities who supposedly had impoverished backgrounds and couldnt get a proper education. higher education opportunity programs for impoverished students who are judged under different, LOWER educational standards and inadmissible through the universities NORMAL standards. there is a HUGE difference. and of course colleges can admit whoever they want. if they think these kids with poor grades make a greater impact, thats their problem. its my right and opinion to say thats effed up.

"But I think we are in agreement that putting in unqualified people is wrong, but I guess where is there evidence of this?
Not to say it doesn't happen, but if is it a widespread problem?"
i highly doubt any school is going to publish statistics saying we gave this percentage of impoverished, sub-par students admission and "qualified" student is undefinable really. like i said, per school each year there may be 1-20, who knows. but schools all over the country, and each year. i dont see how it wouldnt add up.

If 20 out of 4164 (smallest Ivy League school, Dartmouth) were underqualified, Not even half of a percent, I don't think that's something to be outraged about.

Also, you say that it's wrong for colleges to have lower admissions standards for impoverished minorities, but I argue why not?

Impoverished minorities that work hard and get 50-150 points lower on the SAT, are they any stupider? No. It's just that they weren't able to afford an SAT tutor/prep book. An impoverished minority that didn't take an AP class, is he/she any less hard working. No, It's just that that opportunity wasn't offered to them at their underfunded school.

Not to say that Harvard should admit impoverished minorities with compelling stories, but lousy grades and test scores, but honestly they should take into account how the test score came out.

The upper middle class kid with a 2200 probably had a tutor or a test prep book.

The kid in North Minneapolis with a 2050 probably did not have these same opportunities.

look, seriously

asian kid, hispanic kid, black kid, whatever ... let's say all three have very similar gpas with very similar sat's. they should all be viewed as the same. ain't gotta be racist

What most of you people don't know is that in order to be considered for affirmative action, you need to have the same standards as the rest of the kids. If a black kid gets the same grade as all the white kids that applied for the school, the black kid will get accepted first. Honestly, I think you should be ashamed of yourself, if you want affirmative action. It just makes you look like you can't succeed without help.

^i know that cuz whites are a majority in this county and blacks are a minority but hello????? asians are minorities too you know ... something colleges don't seem to understand.

According to my teacher, who teaches AP Government, Asians aren't considered minorities. Yes, we are usually discriminated against, but we don't have a history of abuse. African Americans, Mexicans, and Native Americans are considered minorities because African Americans were enslaved here and were robbed of their rights. We stole land from the Native Americans and basically wiped out its population and obviously they were also stolen of their rights. We also took land from Mexico and, once again, didn't give them their rights. Asians had their rights when they came here.

Please don't attack me on this. I'm just saying what she told me and it does make sense.

Japanese internment camps
California gold rush

No abuse there right?

I believe it's good that we aren't consider minorities. In my opinion, asians are the smartest race on the planet. Majority of us are hard workers and don't mind suffering, where as a lot of the kids in the US are so laid back that they don't care.

Wow, getting emotional, aren't we?

You're a confused person and you talk in circles, you're also raging mad so I will try to bring logic to your flawed argument which you started when you quoted and replied to my post.

You're saying that sucky grades make you inadmissible to colleges. That's a given, isn't it? You're implying that sucky grades without affirmative action would get a rejection from colleges and therefore you're implying that WITH affirmative action, sucky grades will get you in. If that is not what you're saying then you have no business giving me that hypothetical because you'd be telling me what I already know. Sucky grades = college rejection is common sense. But unless I'm mistaken, you are telling me that sucky grades + affirmative action = college acceptance, then that is what I'm arguing against. Sucky grades + affirmative action will not get you admitted to any elite college and that you are mistaken in your opinion that affirmative action will and is currently compensating for HUGE shortcomings in grades and scores.

I understand what you're saying. You're saying grades/scores should be the ONLY thing they look at regardless of race or socioeconomic status-- I understand. You're saying that it's wrong for colleges to let people in with lower than their "regular standards" based on ANY reason-- I understand.

Now.

I'm saying that "normal inadmissible standards" are arbitrary based on the college's subjective admissions process. I'm saying the people admitted with "lower than the standard scores" have special skills/passions/or qualities that a subjective admissions committee might favor and that regardless of race (hence the Indian/African American example) they look on ABILITY, IMPACT, and other reasons. For example. Stanford student ATHLETES are admitted based on their non-academic related talent in sports and some have scores/grades below the average of what a "normal" Stanford admit has. They excel in sports. Some people excel in volunteer work. Some people admitted to CalTech or MIT have made amazing devices or breakthroughs and may be lacking in verbal test scores or grades. Some people admitted to UPenn's business program might not have been stellar students but started a successful and breakthrough company. These specific strengths/passions compensate for what little their grades/scores might lack because even then, the deviation from the standard admission scores/grades is NEGLIGIBLE at most. You will not see people admitted to universities with huge deviations from the average scores/grades. That is what I'm saying. And if by any chance they have lower grades or lower scores than the average, it's because they had certain passions or unique qualities that appealed more to admissions officers.

And yes, I know you have the right to your opinion but YOU replied to MY post first and thus, I am replying BACK because it is also MY right to state and defend MY opinion which you seem to have an issue with since-- once again-- you replied to me first.

I thoroughly enjoyed this debate and hope you don't take it too personally as it's not worth crying over. Thank you, come again.

I block read a lot but this was a good ending! cracked me up!

ah so I see, this thread is not all about sex, booze and hazing, aye?

.. Lol, thanks. And your signature rocks my socks.

Anyway, I won't be back on this thread since by this point, it'd just be repeating the same things over and over again. I'm sure the love and relationships section has something juicy and more interesting.

Bravo Lionheart. Bravo.