This can be an interesting thread. Which is your preference and why?

Edit: this is not for daily driving, such as convenience for snow, rain, etc. This is in a performance point of view.

AWD or RWD.

Because I don't like the wimpy "sports" cars that have FWD.

rwd, awd is fun too, great for snow, but u cant really go "drifting" (not implying im some pro drifter). and we all know fwd is just fail on a sports car. Not bad for econoboxes

grow up and learn to appreciate, there is nothing wrong with fwd sport cars. heres a case where fwd > rwd.
TL-S(fwd) vs is350(rwd) vs g35(rwd) at willow springs.

1. TL-S 6MT - 1:36:67 sec
2. IS350 - 1:38:24
3. G35 6MT - 1:38:67

full thread:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=677699

and no im not bias, i drive an s2000(rwd)

Acura TL is a pretty well rounded car, but I'd like to see the same race at Laguna Seca.

Quite frankly, those results don't mean much. Those aren't track oriented-vehicles to begin with, they're luxury street cars with sportiness. Try designing a FWD car to compete against a Viper ACR or Murcielago LP640 on the race track; highly unlikely to duplicate the same results.

I prefer RWD myself, since a lot of the cars that appeal to me happen to be RWD. I can respect a lot of AWD cars, but a lot of times the overall designs just don't appeal to me.

I would have to disagree with chvietnk. Sure the TL-S is better than the IS350/G35 with that time, but there is more to a car than lap times. How often are you going to take those cars to a track anyway? Since you have a S2000, you could understand there is more to it than power. The S2000 is a lovely car and handles well out the box. However, for that price range, it is under powered (even with it's power/weight ratio). Nonetheless, it's a fun car to drive, which brings me back to point of lap times. Another example I would use is the Mazda Miata (MX-5). Same situation there.

With my example for FWD cars, Mazdaspeed 3 and SRT4 (no matter how much people dislike it), they both are very quick FWD cars. Torque steer is a major issue with these cars (and other FWD 'sports' cars). You can't even take corners like a RWD/AWD car could no matter how well these cars are because there is too much power going to the front wheels. Sure you could modify everything, but then in the end, it just depends on how much money you/people put in. For the sake of the arguement, I am strickly speaking off the lot specs.

And a sports car is defined has a RWD car, no matter how much we disagree. With that said, I am sure some of you will throw in some form of Type R (those are just sporty coupes). Some companies try to portray their car as a sports car, i.e. Nissan w/ Maxima/Altima.

But I personally prefer AWD. It's typically safer and is more realistic to daily driving (i.e. rain or bumpy roads, etc.). RWD are great/fun in perfect weather conditions.

I don't like FWD in general. But I'll make some exception to cars like the SRT-4. I prefer RWD because most of the more "practical" fun car to drives are RWD. Don't get me wrong, I like AWD too.

On the subject of FWD, there is one FWD car I do like, the Volvo S40 T5.

Then again, there's the R-Design which adds precious AWD to it.

lol. LOL i dont even know what to reply. I said i prefer rwd/awd for handling, that has nothing to do with speed.

A mazda miata/mx-5 is arguable one of the most balance rwd cars ever made. Is it john teshing fast without a engine swap? no but it is an extremely fun car to drive thats rwd. Find me a fwd with amazing balance thats fun to drive, and no civics dont count.

so you found one example of luxury sport(rofl) oriented cars with the fwd being faster. whoop-de-doo

Since you go by lap times around a track, lets look at the fastest times around the nurburgring. Is the fastest car FWD? no, fair enough is there a FWD car in the top 10? top 50?.

U found a niche example of FWD being faster based on luxury(LOL) cars.


Edit: lol i just read hakus post and its basically the same thing i wanted to say.

Second : chvietnk, did you seriously categorize the G,IS,TL class as sports cars?

all this thread is going to turn into is a fwd bashing thread... i can already see the trend. but I think that fwd is a perfectly fine platform. sure, i had a phase where I wanted a rwd for my dd(and i still do probably for my weekend car), but there are plenty of fast and fun ff cars. fwd just has a bad name because most of the drivers you see out there are riced hondas or all that you have ever driven is a ford taurus. its actually not as bad as you think.

im not saying fwd is better, but people always talk down on fwd just because it is "fwd" but there are many great fwd designs out there.



since when are we on the topic of "sport car" platforms only? im not saying fwd is BETTER. im saying there are good designs of fwd platform out there that people obviously walk by just because it is "fwd"

RWD because my car is RWD.
No but really, I can't feel the difference between those 3. Unless it comes to winter when it snows or when I am turning fast in my z which is a no do now since I learned what it can do.

You never felt the torquesteer in FWD? Or the increased happenings of wheelspin (IMO, I think wheelspin happens a bit more often in FWD than RWD or AWD). I believe you also get understeering a bit more often.

I've been driving a FWD instead of my AWD for a while, and these are the things I keep feeling.

I was never really into rwd.

But in terms of handling, fwd also gets the job done. You guys ever rode in a gutted CRX with a gsr swapped w/ full coilovers and swaybars? It handles pretty damn good.

Now, I know rwd is obviously the superior platform, there's no doubt about that. But you can't leave the fwd out in the dark when it has as much capability as the rwd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMZrDejIpsM

heres the thing, for arguments sake, both platforms have their merits. But like you said, rwd is superior. Now why would u want to drive the inferior one when the option to have RWD is available. ONLY exception would be snow/rain/reckless drivers who cant control rwd.

It depends on what I'm using it for. If it's for autox or a road with tight turns, believe it or not, I will actually pick the fwd over the rwd.

Road courses like button willow, I will obviously pick a rwd car.

RWD. The only area in which FWD is better would be cost and fuel efficiency. As for AWD - I never particularly cared for it, it's arguably better than RWD in some situations. But only some.

So the only people who would want to race a FWD car are people who like inferior cars and people who terrible control? So would I be stupid for racing an Integra on a tight road course or autox?

For daily driving: To work & back, any platform is fine. Depending on how far the commute is. If it's a long commute, i'll take a FWD car. If it's short, i'll take a AWD.

For a fun car, i'll take a RWD.

RWD is ideal for me, I care mostly about handling, so RWD is my weapon of choice for a fun car.

However, for daily abuse, I need something reliable, comfortable, doesn't drink too much gas, low maintenance cost.

My top choices of daily drivers (in no particular order):

Subaru WRX
Honda Civic Si
Audi A4
Volkswagen GTI
Acura RSX-S
Acura TSX
Nissan Altima

It depends on the car, but I prefer a hatch/wagon, then a 4 door, then a coupe for a daily.

Also, for longer drives I noticed bigger luxurious cars are nicer. You're less tired and irritated in a big body benz driving for 4 hours than say a Honda civic with a fart cannon.

well. awd understeers too much.
rwd has best handling

most fwd have bad handling. prelude is fwd but that's exceptional.

But i would pick awd for better control of your car. not necessarily handling
for handling i would go for rwd.

but then again awd has bad MPG.


this is an endless topic. but basically awd for me..

Not mine

I forgot to add in the Mazda3, worth mentioning.


I wish I could get rid of my CR-V and pick up a hot hatch or something.
*sigh it's paid off and I know I shouldn't buy another car.

Yeah it's not bad for daily commuting or getting most of the job done. I for one understand why you see this is just a FWD bashing thread. It's not even about the riced out cars a lot of the people see/do. I even mentioned some FWD cars that are fun and fast, but you can't possibly say that they corner better than a AWD/RWD car? Depending on the amount of power on the FWD motor, it would cause so much torque steer through the corner (or even a straight line for the matter). Again, strickly speaking of stock cars. We could argue all day about modded cars and if X is done to it, then Y would happen.

You can even take a look at the trend the automotive world is moving in. Yes, FWD is fuel efficient and gets the job done from point A to B. But if we're talking/looking for the 'fun' factor, the FWD seems to lack in that department. For those that drive S2000's, they could've easily purchased an Evo, STi, 335, 135, etc, but those are not as 'fun' (although it is subjective). We can even argue with the Mazdaspeed 3 vs Mazda Miata or RX8. The Miata and RX8 are not as fast as the speed3, but I am sure they are more 'fun' in the corners. Even the Speed3 owners complain of torque steer, and they love their car. But I am going off on a tangent. If you look at the trend of the 'car world', the 'sporty' cars are either AWD or RWD. Manual transmissions are also being obsolete, but like said before, it's subjective.

I also like fwd cars because they're generally lighter. Also, there's less hp loss due to everything being in the front whereas awd has to have it's stupid ass power split. Also, awd sucks because you have the power loss on roll races. ALSO, awd sucks even more because if you don't have a built transmission, you can't launch it without it blowing up on you. ALSO, awd sucks because it's too heavy.

God damn it. I'm selling my Impreza.

I like FWD from the standpoint that you can get a somewhat economical drive while being able to still get good performance out of it (I'd want an EK Civic Type-R when they become legal in Canada), but I'm an RWD fan because it's more balanced for performance driving. Since I'm in Canada, I would want a car with AWD for the snow (I was thinking of trying to find or import a Subaru Legacy or Impreza wagon, or waiting for the Nissan Stagea), but I'll stick to my RWD Toyota for now.

However, isn't there a breakdown within 4WD vs. AWD?

I honestly don't know. I always thought 4WD technically was the same as AWD, but at the same time was completely different.

I agree. RWD is simple, fun, easy(sorta).

Isnt 4wd all power to all wheels and AWD is power divided among the front and rear wheels? thats how i always thought of it.

No. If I remember right, 4WD cars cannot be turned off. While AWD can be turned off.

What? My Impreza's "awd" can't be turned off at all.

that depends, is the integra the best handling/trackable car that you were able to buy in your price range? if thats the case yes.

You kinda overgeneralized it. it wouldnt be like "the escalade handles better than an integra because its is RWD" kinda get what im saying?

AWD is always active while 4WD is manually or electronically controlled and the car is either inherently RWD or FWD (like most SUV's or in the electronic case, the ATESSA-ETS in the Skyline GT-R), according to Wikipedia anyways.

Interesting thread is interesting.

You have it backwards, AWD is where each wheel runs at different speeds while 4WD has all 4 wheels spinning at the same speed. Now lets talk about 6WD

Also, AWD can't be turned off because everything is automatic, 1 wheel loses traction and the car stops sending power to that wheel or transfers it to another wheel with more traction.

4WD, can be switched from 4wd to 2wd via a button that releases the shaft that connects the front wheels and the rear wheels.

There is no superior. They are all practical and functional. AWD, FWD, RWD comes down to personal preference and the specific make and model of the car.

Making cars into individual representatives of FWD, AWD or RWD is pointless.

I beg to differ. What platform does the fastest cars use? Mid-engine rear-wheel.

what platforms do most fuel effiecient cars use? off-road? i think he meant overall not just in terms of speed.

This thread is about performance, as I stated in the beginning.

touche, and if u read one of my previous posts, i agree with you.

Since this is a performance question, there is a reason why most competitive racing cars are RWD. It has better handling than FWD and weighs much less than AWD. The flaw in FWD is that you are using the front wheels not only for traction but for steering which causes considerable tire wear. In structured racing, roads conditions are near ideal so generally having AWD is not needed so the drivetrain would only adds a lot of weight which creates an added burden in performance.

Ehh, I had it backwards, but at least I had the concepts right...

Performance doesn't have one particular definition.

The FWD layout has the advantage of not having a driveshaft running under or through the cabin of the car which allows the engine to be mounted transverse, resulting in a lighter and more compact car. It also has the advantage of lower drivetrain losses and potentially has higher fuel efficiency. However the drivetrain benefit is lost under hard acceleration when the weight of the car shifts towards the back wheels, away from where the power is being applied. FWD cars will also be front heavy due to the drive train components in the front as most FWD cars have a weight distribution of 60/40. Most FWD cars also can't turn the wheels as far due to the drivetrain components. In high speed cornering this doesn't mean much, but in low speed cornering this becomes another weakness versus RWD cars.

Proper cornering technique involves carefully balancing available traction between cornering, braking, and accelerating. On corner entry, a nose-heavy FWD car would be less responsive on turn-in compared to a similar car with a RWD layout that has a 50/50 weight distribution. On corner exit, the RWD car would kill the FWD car because the FWD car would have the front tires share traction between cornering and accelerating, while the RWD car uses it's front tires for finishing the turn and the rear tires for accelerating out.... more overall traction is available for cornering and accelerating for a RWD car.

It's for these reasons that if you had a RWD car and FWD car that were otherwise very similar, the FWD car would hit a performance cap a lot sooner than the RWD car. At which point in order for the FWD car to keep up with the RWD car's performance, it'll become much more expensive and require much more drastic modifications/upgrades.

In most GT/GP style races, they add a bit of an endurance aspect with tire management. As someone mentioned before, FWD would wear out the front tires a lot more quickly than a RWD setup. It's for the reasons above that GT/GP races that allow FWD cars give them considerable handicaps such as less power restriction, lower weight limits or more robust engine or chassis upgrades/modifications.

Performance-wise, FWD is at the bottom of the food-chain. Economy-wise, FWD FTW. Fun-factor... depends on who you ask.

Fine, I'll be more clear.

Performance in a road course/autox.

hayabusa pretty much sums it up.

FWD's have a much lower limit than that of RWD or AWD cars (performance wise)
if you're not at the least concerned about cars this isn't an issue, but to the slightly more technical minded it means the difference between hitting an apex and riding into a dirt trap.

with that said, RWD is probably my preference, even though i'm planning on an audi haha..
it's just more fun than the 'safe' AWD and the lame FWD (IMO)

I lawl'd. Sorry.

The moment I switched to rwd I never looked back to fwd. In my opinion in fwd, there is just way too much stress loaded on the front tires. I feel rwd is better balanced in that sense and I guess when it comes to driving styling, I love the feeling of being able to accelerate hard out of a corner without understeering. I feel it's easier to recover from oversteer than understeer too. I don't know if that's true for others, could just be me. Obviously not all rwd cars are the same either. My MR2 when I had it with just TRD springs and tokico struts still rounded corners a lot better than my S13 now with coilovers and sways. I haven't gotten the chance to experience awd yet, so I can't comment on that.

Obviously. MR layout = win

for fun and driving feel nothing beats RWD. for ultimate performance after a certain power level (at lower power levels it wouldnt be worth the extra weight) some type of awd system that is 100% rwd until it looses traction then sends some power to the front would probably be the best.

yes you can make fwd cars fast but there is no arguing that it is not the ideal platform and ultimately rwd or awd is superior.



why? rwd is superior

It may be superior, but it's pretty pointless to drive a superior platform when you're already used to the opposite platform and not the superior platform itself. I'm fairly certain that I can drive a fwd through the tight turns much better than the rwd.