For example, when I grew up in the Bronx... kids from Queens were told that what they were doing was not hip hop... Then later on kids from Queens and Brooklyn dissed Long Island... Eventually kids from New York dissed New Jersey and Philadelphia rappers etc.. Around '82, '83, '84... pioneering artis like Mele-Mel and Grandmaster Caz said they represented the 'old school' while new comers like Run DMC and KRS-One who represented the new school weren't 'real' hip hop... If you go back and listen to some of the old songs you'll hear the dissing going on...In fact KRS-One sums things up best in his song 'Still Number#1' when he addresses Mele-Mel....

We need someone to hit it big in tha mainstream scene n show errybody wah true hip hop is about.

just because you dont like mainstream hip hop doesnt mean that you can take away its classification as hip hop.

lil jon, sugarhill gang, das EFX, 50 cent, biggie, cassidy, big l, fabolous, lil wayne, big pun, fat joe, outkast, cee-lo, aesop rock, the roots, pitbull, atmosphere, celph titled, run dmc, tag team, ja rule, mf doom, ying yang twins, apathy.. its ALL hip hop

different sh*t, same toilet

and ALL hiphop is REAL hiphop

heres a letter regarding "real" hip hop which was refuted by davey d (a hip hop journalist) http://www.daveyd.com/marchletters.html

a quote from davey d:
do some pondering after you read the bolded text.
then SUPPORT someone. show the executives that have all the control that there is a market for this so-called "TRUE" hiphop

there is none of this "true" hiphop out on radio/tv because there is no market for it. everyone seems to wanna listen to whats in the clubs and the people with power want to keep making money so they just give what people wanna listen..

Yeah, I heard KRS One talking about this cycle, and how people kept on looking back into the past talking of how dope rappers used to be. But then again, he called mainstream rappers today cowards. But I still can't imagine twenty years from now people looking back at Lil Jon, talking about him having dope flow and lyricism. At least groups like Public Enemy and artists like Immortal Technique rap about "important" things. And those that didn't have good topics to rap about... at least they had flow and lyricism, accompanied with a sick beat. That's why they were remembered, and not necessarily because of their topics. Actually, alot of old school rappers rapped about the same thing as todays rappers like money and boasting. The difference was delivery, creativity, and the beats. Seriously I think the cycle has stopped here. Look at mainstream rappers today: they lack flow, subject matter, and lyricism. Even Nas proclaimed Hip Hop as dead. The quality of rap has simply gone down in my point of view. Everything just sounds the same now. Now everyone raps about hoes, drugs, and violence.


We will see, and maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe people will look back to say, "Wow, 50 Cent was dope! He raps about hoes, money, drugs, and violence! Great flow and lyricism too!" Or maybe they'll forget rappers from that era altogether.

I mentioned that KRS One called mainstream rappers cowards today. They just don't rep the true spirit of hip hop. The reason why hip hop was even started in the first place was to get away from the mainstream, but all these rappers just run into the mainstream while forgetting about their underground roots (if they had any), and become totally media-friendly. This is irony. Rappers become the very thing they sought to escape. Worse than sellouts. I mean, if rappers ran to the mainstream while remaining loyal to their roots, it would be different. But this is difficult to do, and almost nobody wants to/can do it.

So of course there will be no "true" hip hop in the mainstream. The mainstream do not want to listen to true hip hop today. They would much rather have party music which also happens to be called hip hop. That's why there is an underground. The underground is for people that appreciate the purest form of hip hop with no interference with the media. However, the underground doesn't appeal to most people, and in short, its not marketable. But there are also artists in the underground that sound mainstream... nobody really cares about them. Not the mainstream nor the underground. lol.

The reason why hip hop was even started in the first place was to get away from the mainstream,

The underground is for people that appreciate the purest form of hip hop with no interference with the media.

Rise Up Hip Hop Nation Wise Up pt 1
by Kristine Wright

First, I'd like to big up and offer respect to all souljahs in the struggle - the struggle for freedom, justice and equality continues and must continue. These souljahs fight on many fronts, from full-time revolutionaries, to full-time parents, taking care of their families and raising up stronger individuals for the future. From those doing what they should do, to those doing what they can do to just get by, we all are in the same struggle. We must start working a little harder to disrupt the status quo(please see Rise Up, Part 1: http://www.blackelectorate.com/
articles.asp?ID=617), but to do this will take UNITY.

Hip hop once again faces a moment in its history that may prove defining. Over five years ago the world watched the first implosion...East Coast vs. West Coast rivalries leading to the premature deaths of two hip hop truthsayers, Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls. It was a wake up call, and a lot of us woke up, at least for a minute. But truth be told, we still get caught up in wrong battles fighting wrong enemies. The latest frontiers: Mainstream vs. Underground, or New School vs. Old School. Again, we've taken our eyez off the prize.

For the past year, I've been carefully watching where hip hop was going and if it could reach its inner potential, and as we say in hip hop, move the crowd. I've seen some good things happen. Community activism in inner cities across the country is taking on a hip hop sensibility and offering real alternatives for youth at community levels. This activism has recently experienced national level successes, particularly thanks to Russell Simmons' Hip Hop Action Network. It has been responsible for organizing hip hop summits bringing artists, activists, spiritual leaders, and politicians to the same table for change. Most recently, the Hip Hop Action Network joined forces with New York educators and students to protest budget cuts in education, and due in part to these efforts, achieved retribution. Chuck D, KRS-1 and others have never stopped speaking truth to power and living their activism. Minister Farrakhan has also reached out to the hip hop community and offered his guidance to help us reach our revolutionary potential. Good things are happening.

At the same time, however, I've also noticed a growing tension and division within the community, a community so close to organizing and reaching its powerful potential, but knocked off track time and time again. Is it a coincidence? I don't think so.

The growing battles within hip hop around mainstream vs. underground, new school vs. old school, or "real" hip hop vs. commercial, are dangerous to real progress. A community divided is a community conquered indeed. Two most recent distractions center on the KRS-1 vs. Nelly beef and Nas vs. Hot 97. Both need careful consideration and real critical analyses.

On her new CD, Lauryn Hill asserts, "Fantasy is what people want, but reality is what they need." Well, here's the reality when it comes to these feuds and others like it:

1. Although battling is a pillar of hip hop culture, the KRS-1/Nelly beef highlights a real generational divide. New school artists are always accused of selling out for the money, disrespecting the roots of hip hop and its founders, and perpetuating negative, stereotypical images in lyrics and videos. In retaliation, new school and mainstream artists call out old school and underground artists for being haters, jealous and has beens, out of touch with the community.

Growing up in the KRS-1, Public Enemy era of hip hop, I owe my understanding of the struggle to them. My students consider me old school, and that's fine by me. But in this beef, I see both sides. Yes, the new generation needs to show more respect for those that paved the way. But old school folks must also show respect to young brothas and sistas still trying to maintain in the only way they know how in this world where few opportunities exist for the have nots. In many ways, the majority of youth we want to represent in the struggle relate much more to Nelly (if you live in Midwest), or Snoop (if you live in LA), or Ludacris (if you live in the South), than they do our more "conscious" hip hop keepers like KRS-1 or dead prez. That's real.

We need to stop living in "what should be" and start dealing with "what is". So for KRS-1 to call for a boycott of Nelly, it solidifies the division. Only those that are of like mind were even listening, inevitably preaching to the choir, never reaching the congregation; never uniting or progressing. And what about all our young brothas and sistas in hoods around this country that like Nelly? Are we dissing them too? We need to think more carefully about possible repercussions.

2. If us old school folks tell the truth, bling-bling in hip-hop is hardly new. Old school hip hop had its share of references to the material. Who can forget the gold rope chains? Black folks have always liked nice things because we've rarely had them. This dates back well before hip hop. The zoot suits and fancy cars of the Harlem Renaissance come to mind.

Mainstream "bling-bling" artists are really no different then the countless brothas in hoods all across the country that drive nice cars but live at home with mama. Let's stop blaming the new generation and mainstream artists for values we instilled long ago. In the same way, I remember as a high school girl singing along with my girlfriends to our favorite rapper/pimp, Big Daddy Kane: "Anything goes when it comes to hoes because pimpin' ain't easy". I know better now; then I didn't. We have to accept people where they are and for who they are, instead of telling them who they "should" or "should not" be. People do and can change, but criticism rarely motivates. Support and guidance may prove better motivators.

3. Although I applaud Nas for his courage to speak truth to power and highlight the corruption inherent in radio and corporate co-option of the culture he loves so passionately, I'm afraid his energies are misplaced and will not reap the results he would like. By calling out individuals from Flex to N.O.R.E. to Nelly, the focus of his warranted criticisms become personal and attention gets shifted from where it needs to be: on the oppressive system in which they are ALL pawns. The result: more division, no solution. And is Nas blameless, or am I the only one who remembers "Oochie Wally"? We can't be selective when we're keepin' it real.

4. I recently attended what I thought would be a "real" hip hop show featuring talented and often conscious artists including Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Blackalicious, The Roots, and Outkast. Unfortunately I left disappointed (and very early). I felt like I was more at an under-aged rave than a hip hop show that highlights "real" hip hop culture. I left wondering, what is so "positive" about this? Moreover, what is so "hip hop" about this? Because many of the underground "diss" mainstream so tuff and claim a "moral" high ground, it was strange to see this scene that didn't seem all that "positive" to me, where most in its young crowd were much more interested in getting stoned and ecstacied out than they were in the music or message. I think there's been more romanticism in revolution than real dedication to it in the underground and we need to talk more on this.

Although I've noticed more hip hop activism, I'm fearful that the growing division in hip hop will undermine our progress. It's like the activists are underground but those that need it are the mainstream masses. No progress can come from this equation; so systemically, little has changed. We are (our youth especially) still victims of oppressive educational and judicial systems that lock us up and out of self-determination, the only real solution. And this solution must come from a united people. We are all different, coming from different places, but hopefully we can become out of many, one people (borrowing from the Jamaican national motto). Without the masses, there can be no movement (please see insightful piece by Adamma Ince, No Masses, No Movement: Black Boomers Shout Reparations in the Court - But Go Silent in the 'Hood', http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0221/ince.php).

The Civil Rights Movement had the church as its catalyst. We have hip hop, and hip hop media outlets (radio, BET, magazines, web sites) must play a role in any movement to reach the masses. Even Nas must admit that, dissing one station while on another corporate owned radio station. If he didn't have access to this medium, only cats on his block would have heard him. Iyanla Vanzant once said, "Be against nothing, just be clear what you are for." If you are clear what you stand for, you need not be anti- anything or anyone, and the power of clarity circumvents any power gained from division. Although I understand that battles and beefs have been a part of hip hop culture since its beginnings, I hope they won't become another pawn for the oppressors' use to keep a revolutionary community and culture from realizing its potential for a greater good. Let's now work together and unite for progress and become truly, out of many, ONE PEOPLE.... ONE LOVE.

Unity must have to start now, because I mean how long will we have to suffer to just learn these things...that we must be united - Bob Marley, Chant Down Babylon

Kristine Wright teaches a course in Hip-Hop at the University of Califorina - Irvine and can be contacted via e-mail at Wrightk@uci.edu

dawg, NOBODY is gonna talk about lil jon having a dope flow and lyrics. do people talk about sugarhill gang and mention their DOPE flow and LYRICS? do they mention TAG TEAM and their DOPE FLOW and LYRICS? lil jon isnt taken seriously for rapping.. the only thing lil jon is gonna be remembered for is makin people CRUNK.. just like the old school party rappers. im positive that everyone doesnt take lil jon as an emcee

as for 50 cent.. hes already hated now, so what makes you think hell be praised for in the future? the only possible thing i can imagine him getting praised for is building g-unit and selling mad records and being sucessful; basically for being such a hustler and putting his foot in the game with minimal help, which is what 99% of rappers tryna blow cannot do
do you think its ALL their fault? do you really believe mainstream artists have 100% control over what they produce?

once you get on a major label, most of the time, you lose ALOT of artistic control.
could u elaborate on this a little bit? its kinda vague

from my understanding, hip hop was started as a means to have fun in the midst of the restrictions of the hood
is that what no limit records was about? is that what all the WACK ass soundclick artists on the net about? is that what the dudes on smack dvd talking about hustlin and shootin folks up are about? is that the "purest" form of hip hop?

you dont see "real" hip hop because its not marketable by major labels. simple as that. and all the "real" hip hop artists that get rejected or choose not to go mainstream stay in the underground, where there is a plethora of WACK TALENT

the underground is HUGE; i would estimate only about 15% of it is talented, if even.
so quit being a hater and open your mind. go to a club and feel the difference between listening to paul wall and sage francis when a chick is grindin on your crotch. go ride and see if you want to take the effort of deciphering what aesop rock is saying when youre bumping his album in your car.. sometimes folk just wanna nod their heads to the bass and feel good while theyre driving.. i know thats why people bump young jeezy and ish around my area, cuz they got pride in atlanta and they wanna show it off. hip hop was originally intended to make people FEEL GOOD.. thats why KRS (who was actually talking about something) wasnt considered "real" hiphop by the pioneers. hip hop has evolved and ALL forms of rap has its purpose. just take it as it is and STOP ANALYZING SO MUCH.. you dont like mainstream rap? thats straight. then go find an artist you like and stop bashing something you dont fully understand

What the hell is fake hip-hop?!

LOL wow...

It's a backpack fest up in here....

How much you wanna bet your favorite underground rapper has a ludacris CD...

Oh yeah, does anyone find it ironic that ODB died right before is 36th birthday? (*cough*36 chambers *cough*)

Playing devil's advocate, do you think it's because New York is jealous it lost the hip-hop crown?

Ghostface Killah: New York lost the crown because the New York deejays gave the crown away for some f*cking money. New York be bullsh*ting. Right now, I say f*ck New York. Yeah, I'm from New York, but f*ck New York. Because niggas is pussy. They is so quick to jump on the next man's dick and can't even deal with what they got in front of they face.

That's why I respect other states, man. New York, I don't know -- for some reason we started to get really soft. And now we act like we want that real hip-hop back, when our f*cking deejays is only programmed to play what they playing. They playing more other people's sh*t than our own sh*t. Niggas is screaming that real hip-hop -- we trying to bring it back but we can't even play that real hip-hop on the radio.

I knew New York was wack when they shot my man Amadou Diallo forty-one f*cking times and ain't nobody stand up. But if that sh*t happen in L.A. somewhere, they would have went to bat for Amadou Diallo. It would have been hell. Stores getting burnt the f*ck up. New York don't stand for nothing. They say if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. But we mad at ourselves and can't even get our sh*t right. When you look at them other videos, they popping off and having fun in there. We can't even have fun amongst each other in New York. That's why I say f*ck New York. That's real talk coming from Ghostface Killah.

Maybe I wasn't quite explicit enough, but I said that alot of the underground is WACK.

And how much you wanna bet that my favorite mainstream rapper doesn't have a Hyori CD?

i meant elaborate as in "what do you mean by 'mainstream'"?.. not that.. senior thesis.. thing.
not quite explicit? dawg you were practically PRAISING IT FOR BEING THE MECCA OF REAL TRUE ESSENCE BACK TO THE ROOTS LYRICAL CREATIVE POO POO PLATTER OF HIP HOP.
shoooot. id be interested in who your favorite mainstream rapper is period =P

But there are also artists in the underground that sound mainstream... nobody really cares about them. Not the mainstream nor the underground. lol.

Yeah, there's a lot of the number 36 coming up with Wutang affiliated events. If you ever get the chance to read the Wutang Manual, there's a whole section on how RZA calculated everything to come out as 36. I don't know if he played a role in ODB's death though, lol.

And a little something interesting I found in regards to Ghostface's Fishscale album, which is doing surprisingly well:

Actually, there too many to list for me... lol. To name a few, Rakim and KRS One immediately jump into my mind. I also like DJ Shadow and RJD2, since I am a fan of instrumental hip hop.

Fake hip hop is like Hyori and BoA. lol. But you probably already know that, so I don't know why you are asking.
And how much you wanna bet that my favorite mainstream rapper doesn't have a Hyori CD?

LMAO, just because I have a hyori avatar and sig doesn't mean I don't know anything haha. Get yourself off hater mode for a sec. Furthermore, there is no such thing as "fake" hip-hop. Just different forms of hip-hop. Face it, there's always gonna be crappy music in any genre but you can't just go and label it as "fake". Also, as far as hip-hop being misrepresented in the media as simply "party" music.....Hip-hop friggin' began as party music! You go back to the waaaay beginning of things...hip-hop began with a DJ catering to a party speaking over his records getting the crowd hype. The orginal emcees were in fact DJ's. Bottomline, hip-hop started with people having a good time. How you gonna take that away from people today? If Lil John or 50 cent is making people enjoy themselves, then hey...they are only carrying on tradition. THEY ARE NOT RUINING HIP-HOP AT ALL!

So by staying on topic, as far as what kinda hip-hop artists I listen too....I listen to a wide variety of em'. I don't care if they're labled "mainstream" or "underground". To me, good music is good music...

Just a brief rundown:
Kanye West, Apathy, Outkast, T.I., Lil' Wayne, Juice, Immortal Technique, Ludacris, Atmosphere, Copywrite, Common, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Joe Budden, Louis Logic, Saigon, Jin, Nas, Jigga, etc...etc...etc...

Wow you came late to the party (no pun intended). All of the above material have already been discussed by either badmammajamma or me. Maybe you should try reading what we posted before you post. For the most part, reading is good for you.

I can still imagine Nas pumping Hyori's music while driving by k-town. Yum. And I'm always on "hater mode." No "happy mode" or "sad mode." I was built without an "off" switch. I hate you and I hate the world. But I don't want beef.... I WANT RICE KRISPIES!! Now go get me some rice krispies. After your done, please drag yourself back to the k-pop forums where you belong with those other drugged fangirls. Wow I'm just too 1337 for you all... Peace.

+ DJ Honda and Nujabes.

I may not know as much as you guys know, but I don't think Hip Hop started on hatred so some people in this thread needa calm their butts down. Real or not, Hip Hop is Hip Hop. Some artists can't be called FAKE.. it's just a different catergory they are put in.. Like Fiddy would be placed in Mainstream since his songs are based on what the people wanna listen to.. while, let's say, A Tribe Called Quest (which is my by-far FAVORITE group by the way) is placed under a Soul category because they just rhyme about whatever they feel like.. things that are real to them, nahmean?

So yea, that's just my opinion.

HAHAHAHA man, you're one funny guy.

And I CAN invision Nas blasting Hyori out of his car, you know, right after he plays "Grillz" and "Baby One More Time". That's pretty Illmatic.

Yeah, I get what you mean... If I could edit the thread title, I would.

And DJs in my opinion are so underrated compared to rappers. Thank your DJs.
Of course its Illmatic. lol. And it will be Stillmatic for generations to come... wow so many puns.

True, everyone knows the rapper of the song but a lot of DJs go unrecognized.

And I will thank my DJs. Preemo for his unbelievably awesome beats and DJ Quik because someone had to point out that "you gotta pitch in on the party FASHO." True words of wisdom right there.

1. Let me start off by welcoming you to HHG. Well you read the intro piece for this 3 part feature G. Tell me, do you think that your impact if often over looked ?

G Rap: Yeah man definitely. I mean I feel like it ain't just me that's being over looked by people ya know ? Melle Mel's name rarely gets thrown in the mix along with Kool Moe Dee and such. These cats is some of the dudes that influenced me as well as a whole generation and they rarely get mentioned. But to answer your question, yeah I do feel like what I've done for Hip Hop is often over looked by many sources that shouldn't let it fly over there heads.

2. All The DVD's about MC's, these Hip Hop honor shows, & even countdown MC list on certain media outlets, nine times out of ten the name Kool G Rap isn't mentioned. What's your take on this. Is it political, opinionated, or just lack of education to what's actually authentic ?

G Rap: Well to be real honest with you I think its a mixture of everything you just mentioned. On one end you got the political side. Most of these countdown MC list are run by people who use record sales or popularity to determine who the greatest MC's are. I mean we all know this isn't authentic. Obviously these cats have to cater to there audiences. Opinions is also based upon an individual and most of these cats basing there opinions aren't really educated in the way that they should be. If you see these countdown list some of them don't even mention Rakim, Melle Mel, Big Daddy Kane or a Kool Moe Dee. This is cause some of these cats from this era don't really know about these cats who put it down for the young cats now that they are looking up to. I guess this is why I fall into that category cause I came up from that same era and I pioneered this i can't read from the G Rap end.

6. Well you just mentioned you made a name for yourself in that spot as an MC by just spittin on the mic. Around that time, what made Kool G Rap stand out as an MC from other cats around that particular time ?

G Rap: Well for one, I took the pen game more serious than these other dudes. You got your party rappers who just like to entertain the club or whatever. You got your other type of rappers who are about some other i can't read which is cool. Then you got your lyrical MC's and dudes who are about stepping the game up. You know I'm talking about a cat who can put words together and you can visualize everything he's talking about plus he's doing it with cleverness and in some sought of fashion that everybody else ain't doing. That's what I was about. I was doing all this and rapping with a complex pattern. Well, considered to be complex at the time cause there wasn't anybody doing it like that. You know most cats was just spitting the ABC way and I was trying to be different. So I did certain things to stand out and that was to be on top of my pen game, make my flow different from everybody else's, kick substance, & just take it serious at the same time. Basically I guess that's what made me more advanced than the average at the time. There was only a few other cats who was on top of their pen game like that and those were your Rakim's, Big Daddy Kane, & KRS just to name a few.

18. G is there anything you want to say to the HHG community ?

G Rap: Let's bring this i can't read back to real hiphop. When I say real Hip Hop I'm not just talking about hardcore lyrics, I'm talking about real Hip Hop music all around. You know what I'm saying...lets kick these candy coated, pop corn niggaz out this i can't read. It ain't about the new dudes either cause I got some new dudes on the album. I put dudes on my i can't read that I respect lyrically and that's what it is young or whatever. Thanks to all the fans and cats who support G Rap and still believe in what I'm doing even now. All the cats checking the new i can't read especially and showing love. 5 Fam Click nigga watch out for my camp cause that's what we doing after this i can't read. My wife Ma Barker, 40 cal., Catalyst, Nino Bless, Big East, & Man Slaughter. Production wise Scram Jones, Twinz, Dead Beat Bros, Phrequency, Fokus, Elite and all that. We got a squad and trust me ain't nothing but quality coming out from this side. We got lyrical i can't read, hood i can't read, and all that other i can't read cats need. Shout outs to Big Al, Questchon, Vinny, Jan, Mike Heron, Well Connected, the Catch 22 movement and all the niggaz contributing day in and day out and holding a nigga down. Don't take it personal if I left you out, i can't reads on some spur of the moment tip. All the DJ's lets start playing some real i can't read, open the market up cause ya'll niggaz got the power to do this i can't read to so stop playing. Lets get this Long Live G Rap Section on and popping and hopefully the fans appreciate how I'm reaching out. Last thing to my nigga Nawz (Gorrila Breed) hold ya head baby.