[dancingbymyself]

I know a girl that went to Yale university and majored in Medieval Studies. She currently works at BankOne as a Custodial Services Manager (aka she bosses the costodians around) she makes like $13 dollars an hour. I see alot of people on here do things like this. They attend pricy universities and then major things where they cant practically get jobs in. What is the point of racking up thousands and thousands of dollars of college debt, only to graduate with a degree where you have very little chance of sucess in. So what do you guys think is it better to major in something thats practical or something that you have passion in that you cant get a job in.

[marrymehyori]

For a lot of people, college really is a waste of money, but society "expects" people to get a college degree these days, so they squander the time and money on it pointlessly, like in your example.  Although a medieval studies major could get a job as a museum curator or could become an author/researcher and potentially make a decent living, but it is helpful to think about what you can do with your major before you finalize your decision...

There's definitely something to be said for sticking to professional degrees - accounting, pre-med, pre-law, engineering, architecture, etc.  Not everyone can succeed in those fields, but if you can you will definitely increase your opportunities for excellent paying jobs when you graduate, and long-term career success.

[dafleur]

i don't think there's a such that as a "pointless" degree. if you have learned something from your education, how is it "pointless"? because you're not making rockstar bank after graduation?

sure society expects most to have a college education, but it also places a higher value on how much money you're raking in, over how much you actually ENJOY your career.

[marrymehyori]

i don't think there's a such that as a "pointless" degree. if you have learned something from your education, how is it "pointless"? because you're not making rockstar bank after graduation?

sure society expects most to have a college education, but it also places a higher value on how much money you're raking in, over how much you actually ENJOY your career.

Neither the individual nor society benefits when a person graduates with a college degree, $80,000 in college loans, and ends up in a job at or near minimum wage. And I doubt that person is going to much enjoy their job either... Quite the contrary, they are probably going to end up bitter and angry over wasting so much time and money for nothing.  I know a couple people like that, it's very sad.

It's all well and good to major in something obscure if you have a passion for it and have a career path in mind before you graduate, but if you're just drifting aimlessly then you are in trouble. When in doubt, just major in business

[dafleur]

Neither the individual nor society benefits when a person graduates with a college degree, $80,000 in college loans, and ends up in a job at or near minimum wage. And I doubt that person is going to much enjoy their job either... Quite the contrary, they are probably going to end up bitter and angry over wasting so much time and money for nothing. I know a couple people like that, it's very sad.

It's all well and good to major in something obscure if you have a passion for it and have a career path in mind before you graduate, but if you're just drifting aimlessly then you are in trouble. When in doubt, just major in business

who's to say they "wasted time and money for nothing " if they actually benefited (not just dollar-wise) from their education? there are many people who are perfectly fine with making a moderate income doing something they enjoy rather than making a huge salary in a career they hate. it goes both ways.

though i do agree that when choosing to go into ANY field of study, you always need to have a map planned out.

[thyun]

Wow, some of the things said were starkly stated. I do understand that Medieval Studies might seem like a "pointless degree," but perhaps that person has gained new perspectives and new insights to and from her life. I think one of the things I learned in college is that the world is populated by people with all of them having different mentalities. How can we judge someone from the superficial standpoint? How can we say this or that? I think learning compassion is an essential part of college, which sadly, many fail to realize. Why the aspersion?

[erure]

Although a medieval studies major could get a job as a museum curator or could become an author/researcher and potentially make a decent living, but it is helpful to think about what you can do with your major before you finalize your decision...

To work as a museum curator, wouldn't you need to have at least a Master's? I highly doubt a museum will select a Bachelor over a Master/Doctor...

And I don't think that there are pointless degrees either. It's wrong of you to judge that yourself since you did not go through with the process of getting the degree - it may have been rewarding for that lady in some way if not financially. I just don't really appreciate that kind of blunt labeling if you don't mind me saying.

[marrymehyori]

To work as a museum curator, wouldn't you need to have at least a Master's? I highly doubt a museum will select a Bachelor over a Master/Doctor...

Perhaps not directly to a curator position, but there should be other jobs in a museum where such a degree might have value, depending on the exact nature of the museum. Can work your way up, or work your way through a masters program, over time.

And I don't think that there are pointless degrees either. It's wrong of you to judge that yourself since you did not go through with the process of getting the degree - it may have been rewarding for that lady in some way if not financially. I just don't really appreciate that kind of blunt labeling if you don't mind me saying.

Sure, I agree there are other potential rewards than financial, but most of them people who major in such things are just wandering aimlessly through young adulthood with no thought or plan for the future. You don't need to get a degree in medieval studies to learn something about the topic, you can do that on your own while studying something more "useful" for your degree. I know when I was doing my undergrad the english majors always complained I read so much more than they did, and all of that reading was for personal interest, not class related.

Degrees outside of a professional field should really only be pursued if the person has a plan in place how they intend to use it to further their life goals (which may or may not be financial). If they are drifting, it's bad advice to say "just major in whatever!" If they are drifting, they should be steered towards something "useful", and then they can pursue other interests on their own time. A degree in business or accounting is far more likely to land them a good-paying job than a degree in medieval studies, and with more money comes a higher quality of life that makes it more possible for them to pursue their other interests.

You think it's mean spirited of me to be so blunt, but things like this *need* to be discussed bluntly and freely. It's not a game, this is your entire future at stake.  Sure, you can always change careers later in life if you find your earlier preparations didn't work out so well, but that's where I call majoring in such things without a plan as "wasted time and money".  It's very expensive to change careers when you get older, better to attempt a serious plan *before* you get into the work place.  Sure, it could still not work out as you hope, but you have a better chance of obtaining success if you have such a plan, and I mean that for ALL definitions of "success".

[ronmexico]

There are plenty of jobs for which your major doesn't matter. Your major doesn't have to dictate what you do for the rest of your life. Not everyone sees college as a vocational school.

[sirce]

Perhaps not directly to a curator position, but there should be other jobs in a museum where such a degree might have value, depending on the exact nature of the museum. Can work your way up, or work your way through a masters program, over time.

Sure, I agree there are other potential rewards than financial, but most of them people who major in such things are just wandering aimlessly through young adulthood with no thought or plan for the future. You don't need to get a degree in medieval studies to learn something about the topic, you can do that on your own while studying something more "useful" for your degree. I know when I was doing my undergrad the english majors always complained I read so much more than they did, and all of that reading was for personal interest, not class related.

Degrees outside of a professional field should really only be pursued if the person has a plan in place how they intend to use it to further their life goals (which may or may not be financial). If they are drifting, it's bad advice to say "just major in whatever!" If they are drifting, they should be steered towards something "useful", and then they can pursue other interests on their own time. A degree in business or accounting is far more likely to land them a good-paying job than a degree in medieval studies, and with more money comes a higher quality of life that makes it more possible for them to pursue their other interests.

You think it's mean spirited of me to be so blunt, but things like this *need* to be discussed bluntly and freely. It's not a game, this is your entire future at stake.  Sure, you can always change careers later in life if you find your earlier preparations didn't work out so well, but that's where I call majoring in such things without a plan as "wasted time and money".  It's very expensive to change careers when you get older, better to attempt a serious plan *before* you get into the work place.  Sure, it could still not work out as you hope, but you have a better chance of obtaining success if you have such a plan, and I mean that for ALL definitions of "success".

I would think that someone who studied medieval studies didn't 'wandered aimlessly through life'. I would think that such a person had a real big interest in that study and took the chance to try and work in that field. Something that takes more gut then just go 'for the secure'.
So she got a job that isn't in her field and pays low. So what. You don't know how she really feels (unless she told you), maybe she has friendly colleagues, a nice workingplace, good benefits/extras, it's near her house etc.. Maybe later on she will actually work in the filed she was supposed to. At least she took the chance to study what she likes.
Because really, I can't imagine that a 'wanderer' would study medieval stuff (too specific). 'Wanderers' tend to go more for Psychology or Communications studies or English etc, common big-masses studies.

I'm following a study (sorta media-related) that will problably not make me a lot of money and job-security is not the highest here. I knew that from day 1. I also knew that I wanted a job which I would like to do every day. A place where I might have mornings where I think 'I can't wait to work!' . I will make less money then an accountant/lawyer/docter etc., but I will problably also make less hours (regular hours). And if I'm lucky I will find a job that I wouldn't even mind working overtime just because I like the job. (I have had 3 internships, at my second one I had 2 superiors who regarly worked overtime, but didn't mind because it was part of the job and they LOVED their job - I asked)

For me, money can't just buy quality of life. A higher pay will not change a stressed out working environment where pressure keeps building up. Or competetive coworkers who try to get to nr 1 and therefore backstab you. Or when you just have a really really really really boring job which you have no interest in!
I realize these situations also flies with lower paying jobs, but I'm just pointing out that money isn't everything. A job is something a person will do for a WHOLE lot of time for the rest of his or her life. So why not take a chance and study something you enjoy. Even if it doesn't work out right away. You can try later. Plus, studiying is much more fun if you actually interested in the material.

And reading up about a subject is not the same as really learning about a subject through a study. I'm sure you know that, so there was no need to write about how 'learned' you are. I'm sure not ALL the English majors knew you.

I don't want to say that I'm totally against you, I do get where you're coming from. My family is Chinese and traditionial and would've whished I did a businesscourse or something. (And I also sometimes see studies with weird subjects and think why anyone would study that but it's their choice)
But it's my life and I'd rather do something I enjoy and go to my cozy home to enjoy some other stuff then go through the motion everyday and then come home to a fancy house where you can finally do something you enjoy.

Okay, what I wanted to say got a tad longer then expected, so anyone who will read this entirely...
Sorry.

[marrymehyori]

By request via personal message, I'm going to talk a little more at length here about my own experience, I post here instead of a reply PM in hopes that others might benefit from it.

I never got the "major in something useful" message from anybody. I did hear the "have a plan" speech, but it was hard to think in that way at age 18. I ended up studying something I liked (geography), which would have been pretty useless career-wise, but I got lucky. There was a new aspect to geography that was just burgeoning about that same time - I was quickly drawn to the geomatics side of the discipline and concentrated on GIS. This turned out to be a good move as it was still a fairly new field with not a lot of people in it, which meant a good opportunity for rapid advancment. But for various reasons I don't care to go into publicly, I decided to tread down another path and wound up as a programmer. I'm doing pretty well for myself now, but had a number of missed/ignored opportunities along the way, and if I had focused earlier I'd be doing even better now than I currently am.  Geography was fun to study, but I can see now where I would have been better of studying engineering or business or some such - I've always been interested in geography and would have continued to study it indepenently regardless, but it's basically impossible to get a "professional" job (accountant, engineer, etc) without the corresponding college degree.

Many people who major in non-professional degrees who don't otherwise have a plan for what they will do with their degree will typically end up in sales, marketing, retailing, or some such. That's not automatically a bad thing, commission based sales jobs can generate immense wealth for the effective salesman (more than a professional in some cases - a real estate agent or broker in a hot market can earn obscene amounts of money quickly, for example), but not everybody will be good at selling stuff, and not every product/market can support high sales volume. And being a sales clerk at Wal-Mart certainly isn't going to generate wealth quickly, if at all... Or they might end up as a fast food restaurant manager, which actually doesn't pay all that well (35K or 40K), but is still a very high-stress with crap hours. Even being the *owner* of a McDonald's or Burger King, as opposed to a shift manager, doesn't generate huge wealth (you're doing ok if you generate 50K a year from it), rather franchise owners get rich by owning multiple restaurants (own 5 McDonald's and that's 250K a year - now you're talking real money!). Psychology majors often end up in an HR department somewhere, another job that doesn't pay all that great (in the 20s to mid-30s to start) unless you are the HR director, and advancement tends to be slow. With most of these careers you most likely eventually find your way into middle management, get paid an ok amount, and most folks will stay there for the rest of their lives. There's nothing inherently wrong with that - managers do have their role to play, and the pay is enough to live respectably. Your total quality of life will depend a lot on the corporate culture of the company where you work, so be careful to find a company that will give you what you are really looking for. (Although that's way beyond the immediate scope of deciding on a major...)

What exactly "middle management" means will depend a lot on what field you're in - in a newspaper that might mean managing editor; in a retail outlet or a hotel that might mean shift manager; on TV or in radio that might be a program producer; in a telecom company it'll be the generic pointy-haired boss of Dilbert fame; "middle management" can take many forms, but recognizing it in its broadest sense, you'll have to agree that is about where all of those college-educated folks who lack passion and a plan end up. One doesn't haphazardly stumble into becoming a pulitzer prize winning journalist, a nobel prize physicist or a top-rated brain surgeon, those take passion and planning.  Maybe you want to be a newspaper editor or a PHB, and if so then good for you, you can stop reading now

Contrast that with the kid who forsakes college and takes on an apprencticeship as an electrician or plumber or other such trade: they will have crap income for a few years (just like the medieval studies major!), but most will finally go into business for themselves and will probably earn more than their college educated peers who are stuck in middle management (any reasonably competent tradesman should be able to pull-in six figures in any decent sized market). Plus you get the satisfaction of being your own boss, setting your own work schedule, doing as much or as little work as you want (or can afford to do), not needing anybody's approval for anything, etc. It's a good deal if you can make it work for you. Not everybody has the aptitude for such work, and not everybody has the desire for such work, but always keep in mind that your plumber-neighbor who seems like such a redneck hick may just be one of the many millionaires next door...

Now contrast *that* with those folks who went to college and majored in a professional field - an accountant will start at a decent income (40K to 50K) and be making a very handsome salary indeed after 3 to 5 years (approaching or in six-figures), an engineer likewise. A lawyer or physician will *start* at or near six-figures, but their school debts will probably be huge so it won't feel like for a couple of years. This assumes you get the corresponding professional licensure after graduation - CPA, PE or whatever. Then you can choose to work for a large firm, where you will get generous benefits packages and a good salary, or you can pursue an equally lucrative self-employment path. The down side is that professional license means you will be personally liable for any professional recommendations you make, so if a client does what you say and suffers harm because of it, they can (proverbially speaking, but possibly quite literally) take your house from you. But you make a ton of money for taking on that kind of risk. A full general-partner in one of the big four accounting firms will make, not six-figure incomes, but SEVEN-figure incomes. Of course there aren't very many of those full-parnter positions available in the world, and they bear *ALL* the liability of their firm personally, so the risk is unimaginable (and don't think the risk isn't real - think of Arthur Anderson!), which is what justifies that kind of salary.



So before selecting your major, or changing majors, you should consider this little fill-in-the blank exercise:

I am going to major in _______ because I have the objective of _____________ and this major will help me achieve this objective because _____________.

For some people this will be so trivial an exercise as to be unnecessary, but for others it might be very insightful.


For those who are already far advanced along the path of their major (e.g. in their senior year), and are worried they may have made a mistake, you need to think about why you chose that major in the first place. You may just need to spend an extra semester or two to change your major (if you can come up with *good* responses to the blanks above). Or you can continue to slug it out to the end and just be aware of the limitations facing you. They don't have to be limitations if you have a passion for the subject, or a good plan in place, but if you majored in it "just because" then you face a potentially more difficult time getting the big payoff in your career. If you do have a strong passion for that subject and you can find jobs directly on-target to that major (and if you are passionate about it you probably already belong to one or more groups dedicated to that field and have probably formed some degree of a network which can get you pointed in all the right directions), your passion and enthusiasm will just naturally come through on any interview and if your prospective employer is equally passionate about what they are doing, they will go out of their way to make opportunities for you. Business owners always want to hire people who are not only good at what they do, but also enjoy what they do. So if you started out in a particular major just because, and you don't want to, or can't afford to, spend the extra time to change majors, try to become very passionate about your subject. Join appropriate school clubs, and especially national organizations if available (student discounts are often available - if you must, ask your parents for financial help with any membership fees). Go to the association meetings and network, network, network.


Now I've been framing my enter discussion in the context of career decisions, and it sure is true that there are reasons unrelated to career choice for choosing a given major, and ultimately 10 years down the road it almost certainly won't matter one whit whether you majored in psychology or english or medieval studies or what have you, they will all lead, very broadly speaking, to about the same place: middle management. To that extent, what you major in, if it isn't a professional field with a well defined career path, is just about irrelevent. Well, unless you decide to pursue a graduate degree in that field, in which case it matters a great deal what you majored in, but a lot of people going into graduate school have a pretty good idea what is they want to do with their advanced degree, so I won't speak any more about that. So to the extent that your major will probably end up being irrelevent in the long-term, then sure, study what you enjoy and don't worry about it.

It's not uncommon to see people in their 30s or 40s (compared to people in their 20s or 50s, that is) deciding to strike out on their own, opening up their own business doing something they really want to do, and which has absolutely nothing at all to do with their choosen major - a florist shop, a catering business, offering snorkeling training or surfing lessons, whatever it is they enjoy doing. This is why I say a business major can't really go wrong for those who are having trouble picking a major - if nothing else, it will help you understand how to run your business if you do end up going that route, or if you stay in the corporate world you will likely advance up the management chain further, faster, and since a great many career paths ultimately lead to management jobs in the end anyways...

Money may not be able to buy happiness, but believe you me, below a certain income threshold it is pretty darned hard to be happy, so it sure can help at least up to a certain point.  For all you psychology or sociology majors, you can think in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs 

Ok, that's my diatribe, I'll stop now

[ChunJin]

Seems like your argument is putting college and salary as a function of happiness with comparative analysis. Which is fine; but realize, there are clear flaws in that (since you're generalizing quite a bit). Putting people higher than other people based on your ideals is pretty stupid. Your arguments have no weight to them considering they lack any reasonable proof.

There's no pointless degrees =). There's a variety of jobs, research and more due to the specialization that occurs. A lot of workplaces require huge teams with specialization in areas in this day and age. A person can be happy with their degree or they can't be. This is fact. However, saying that they could have gone with another degree and be happy is a stupid argument (because you, I and no one else knows until it happens).

[little mixed girl]

i think that whether or not a degree is pointless should be judged by the person who got that degree.

the OP and merry, seem to think that that person's degree is/was useless.

as to going into a "profession", not everyone is interested in becoming a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc.
and it's pretty backwards to judge a degree worthless because of how much money a person might make.

social workers get paid crap, but when you're depressed and suicidal, they suddenly become more important.

personally, i would prefer to have someone that likes being a doctor as my doctor over someone who became a doctor because they wanted the money.

i do agree that money can help out a lot, but it's ignorant to think that having that professional degree will get you money.
some people fall on hard times. and what happens when you have a bunch of people with engineering degrees but they can't find a job because there are sooo many people with that degree that those other people aren't needed?

[marrymehyori]

First, I want to observe that my previous post was primarily directed to those who live, or plan to live, in or near major urban areas - if you live out in Idaho or Nebraska the realities of your situation will be very different. But if you're in Los Angeles or New York or Atlanta or some such, what I wrote should be worth a read.

Also, I should like to emphasize the importance of getting an internship - it will both help you get a better idea of if a given career field is suitable for you, and also make it vastly easier to get a job in that career field, if you do decide you like it. I sure wish I had done an internship myself...


Now...

Seems like your argument is putting college and salary as a function of happiness with comparative analysis. Which is fine; but realize, there are clear flaws in that (since you're generalizing quite a bit). Putting people higher than other people based on your ideals is pretty stupid. Your arguments have no weight to them considering they lack any reasonable proof.

There's no pointless degrees =). There's a variety of jobs, research and more due to the specialization that occurs. A lot of workplaces require huge teams with specialization in areas in this day and age. A person can be happy with their degree or they can't be. This is fact. However, saying that they could have gone with another degree and be happy is a stupid argument (because you, I and no one else knows until it happens).

I assume you're talking to me, and I added the bit at the end about money not equalling happiness (but it helps to a point), and non-career reasons for choosing a major. I also even mentioned several job related reasons why what you choose for your major probably won't be relevent to your long-term career, so just pick a major you find interesting.

But really, the #1 reason for going to college at all, whether you care to recognize it or not, is because of a phenomena that sociologists call "professionalization of the work place." I could trace it all back to WWII and the GI bill if you want me to, but that would be rather a lot of writing and it would have to wait til next week if you want to hear it. Even if you don't recognize it, your parents probably do (if only implicitly), which is why so many parents are so anxious for their kids to go to a good college.

It's really something of a shame since there is very good money to be made by competent tradesmen (electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc), where you don't need a college degree to pursue those careers. But white collar jobs seem to be what parents want for their kids regardless of the comparative pay situation - it's a social thing as much as a financial one. Also the thought is probably there that a corporate job is more stable than self-employment or contracting, which was certainly true when our parents were kids (and may well be true to this day in countries other than the USA), but is not true today, and a lot of parents (I'm primarily talking those 50+ years old) probably don't fully grasp the totality of this transformation of the corporate world.

You may not think your college degree is about your job, but your parents sure do, and society and employers definitely do. A lot of kids going to college directly from high school are doing so because of parental pressure, not because they have any real thought of what they are doing. This is why you have so many students wondering what in the world they should major in - they are clueless because they don't understand why they are there and what the implications will be of their degree. There's nothing wrong with that per se, they were thrown into the situation more or less without any idea of why, so that's a very obvious and natural reaction and they're just trying their best to cope.

If you have the chance, if there are any older students (not elderly, but in their 30s or 40s) in your classes, talk to them about why they didn't go from high school to college directly, what their experience was in the work force, and why *they* are back getting their degree.

Really what you *should* be learning in college (and not all professors teach this, or even want/try to teach this, but historically this was the case) is *how* to think. How to reason, how to apply logic, how to solve problems. To the extent your major helps you learn those skills, it was useful and had a valuable point to it. But it is up to YOU to convey to your future employers that you did learn those skills, regardless of what your major was and regardless of the nature of the job for which you are applying.

You can deny it all day long, but the reality is that very, very, very few people ever get a job that is directly on target to their major. There are not nearly as many openings in clinical psychology jobs available as there are psychology majors graduating in any given year (and those who are serious about working in the field of psychology as an analyst will probably get a masters degree anyways, so your bachelor's probably isn't going to qualify you for that job regardless, or at the very least you will be at a great disadvantage in competing for those jobs against those who do have the masters). Similarly for comparative literature, philosophy and a lot of other majors. There *ARE* some fields where demand greatly outstrips the annual number of new graduates, such as nursing and accounting, and you *MUST* have the corresponding major if you want to get a job in those areas, but there are overwhelmingly more majors that lack such demand than there are that have it. Indeed, a lot of majors don't even have a proper career path (other than university professor) corresponding to them.

If you simply aren't interested in being an engineer or a lawyer or a nurse or an accountant, that's fine - they are extremely tough jobs to hold down and not everybody has the temperament for them, that's part of the reason there is such a high demand in those fields - not just anybody can be successful in them. So if you aren't going to pursue such a career path, than the act of choose a major takes on an extremely different character, as I've previously discussed.

[little mixed girl]

^
i think that you're being too black and white with this issue.

where does "useful" begin and end?
a part of going to university (and what should be the main part) is to expand your knowledge in a field of study that you're interested in.

for some people, the satisfaction of being able to expand their knowledge in that field outweighs however much money they might get out of it.
there are people on soompi who can only think of buying designer items and trying to bling out for people they don't even know. spending money on a "useless" university degree is far more valuable and worthwhile purchase, in my opinion.

you also basically seem to be saying that people who don't go for "professional" degrees are worthless.
when a person is in university, they should try and think about what they want to do in the future. you point to "older" students as proof of this. not all older students are people that went to work after high school.
there are many people who graduated university, started working, and later decided to pursue something else.

i have a friend who graduated, and wanted to go to grad school in the states, but instead decided to work at some company in the states instead. if he wants to go get his MBA after he has worked a few years (his plan), why should it matter?

or, if someone decides that they want to pursue a subject like art or literature as a masters because they are interested in it, who cares?

to be quite honest, i don't totally get your arguement.
as i wrote earlier, a person should think about what they want to do with their degree, and they should major in something they have an interest in.

i don't get how getting a degree in something you're interested in that's not in a professional field is related to plumbers or something.
you focus too much on money.

if you want money, then forget going into college and just get good at a sport and become a professional athlete.

finally, working as a "professional" usually requires a Masters degree. so, i guess anyone who doesn't get a masters should just...go off into a corner and cry?

[ling_ling]

well i think UNI is really good and no degree is pointless, having a degree, any type makes u automatically get high pay than anyone else ... unless its diff in the US but yeh thts how it works in the UK....

ling_ling xx

[marrymehyori]

^
i think that you're being too black and white with this issue.

where does "useful" begin and end?
a part of going to university (and what should be the main part) is to expand your knowledge in a field of study that you're interested in.

for some people, the satisfaction of being able to expand their knowledge in that field outweighs however much money they might get out of it.
there are people on soompi who can only think of buying designer items and trying to bling out for people they don't even know. spending money on a "useless" university degree is far more valuable and worthwhile purchase, in my opinion.

I definitely agree with your last statement there, but really, it sounds like you aren't reading everything I write, or at least you're ignoring large parts of it in your response and just focusing on one or two points I raise. Others have done the same thing as well. I'm not going to repeat myself further, just go back and re-read what I wrote more carefully and you'll see we aren't necessarily so far in disagreement as you fancy. So, if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, well, "if you want me to go on arguing you'll have to pay for another 5 minutes..."

[sirce]

I read it all but there is just too much written and I'm not sure on what part I should comment. Also, I don't get why some parts were written at all, even though it has good intentions. It's like reading something that could've written shorter, but has all this stuff that seem to make sence and some do but then they don't. And that confused me. So I'll just grab (most of) the text of marrymehyori and comment on pieces of it:

I've always been interested in geography and would have continued to study it indepenently regardless, but it's basically impossible to get a "professional" job (accountant, engineer, etc) without the corresponding college degree.

I don't get why you call it a ''professional'' job. I'm not even sure what you mean with 'profesional' jobs. It's true you will need a a certain degree, but other jobs have (corresponding) degrees too. You can't be a museumcurator with a accountantsdegree. You can't be a librarian with an engineeringsdegree.

Many people who major in non-professional degrees who don't otherwise have a plan for what they will do with their degree will typically end up in sales, marketing, retailing, or some such. That's not automatically a bad thing, commission based sales jobs can generate immense wealth for the effective salesman (more than a professional in some cases - a real estate agent or broker in a hot market can earn obscene amounts of money quickly, for example), but not everybody will be good at selling stuff, and not every product/market can support high sales volume. And being a sales clerk at Wal-Mart certainly isn't going to generate wealth quickly, if at all... Or they might end up as a fast food restaurant manager, which actually doesn't pay all that well (35K or 40K), but is still a very high-stress with crap hours. Even being the *owner* of a McDonald's or Burger King, as opposed to a shift manager, doesn't generate huge wealth (you're doing ok if you generate 50K a year from it), rather franchise owners get rich by owning multiple restaurants (own 5 McDonald's and that's 250K a year - now you're talking real money!). Psychology majors often end up in an HR department somewhere, another job that doesn't pay all that great (in the 20s to mid-30s to start) unless you are the HR director, and advancement tends to be slow. With most of these careers you most likely eventually find your way into middle management, get paid an ok amount, and most folks will stay there for the rest of their lives. There's nothing inherently wrong with that - managers do have their role to play, and the pay is enough to live respectably. Your total quality of life will depend a lot on the corporate culture of the company where you work, so be careful to find a company that will give you what you are really looking for. (Although that's way beyond the immediate scope of deciding on a major...)

What exactly "middle management" means will depend a lot on what field you're in - in a newspaper that might mean managing editor; in a retail outlet or a hotel that might mean shift manager; on TV or in radio that might be a program producer; in a telecom company it'll be the generic pointy-haired boss of Dilbert fame; "middle management" can take many forms, but recognizing it in its broadest sense, you'll have to agree that is about where all of those college-educated folks who lack passion and a plan end up. One doesn't haphazardly stumble into becoming a pulitzer prize winning journalist, a nobel prize physicist or a top-rated brain surgeon, those take passion and planning. Maybe you want to be a newspaper editor or a PHB, and if so then good for you, you can stop reading now

This is a big story about middle-management, how much money you make and really it sounds like you find them okay, but in reality you think they are being suckers since they earn not as much money as you'd like. It's not really nice for me to read, since I'm actually aiming to be an editor at some mediacompany. Also 1 of my siblings is a Psychology student and I'm pretty sure she doesn't think that her future is 'most likely' going to be crappy. She also accepted the fact she might not earn much and she really enjoys her study.
Besided I thought that 'professional' people can also end up in marketing, sales, retailing or such.

Contrast that with the kid who forsakes college and takes on an apprencticeship as an electrician or plumber or other such trade: they will have crap income for a few years (just like the medieval studies major!), but most will finally go into business for themselves and will probably earn more than their college educated peers who are stuck in middle management (any reasonably competent tradesman should be able to pull-in six figures in any decent sized market). Plus you get the satisfaction of being your own boss, setting your own work schedule, doing as much or as little work as you want (or can afford to do), not needing anybody's approval for anything, etc. It's a good deal if you can make it work for you. Not everybody has the aptitude for such work, and not everybody has the desire for such work, but always keep in mind that your plumber-neighbor who seems like such a redneck hick may just be one of the many millionaires next door...

This part didn't have to be written. The thread was about degrees and the consequences. Yes, 'trade' people can earn more, even more then some 'professional' people. It all depends on factors like how many hours you work, how good you are etcc.. Also, being an own boss doesn't have to be all roses and stuff. My family owns a restaurant and my parents work everyday for 10-12 hours. Also they have to organize stuff like meatdeliveries, drinks, the alcohol, foodstuff which also cost a lot of personal time. Yes, you can decide your own hours, but not working means no money.

Now contrast *that* with those folks who went to college and majored in a professional field - an accountant will start at a decent income (40K to 50K) and be making a very handsome salary indeed after 3 to 5 years (approaching or in six-figures), an engineer likewise. A lawyer or physician will *start* at or near six-figures, but their school debts will probably be huge so it won't feel like for a couple of years. This assumes you get the corresponding professional licensure after graduation - CPA, PE or whatever. Then you can choose to work for a large firm, where you will get generous benefits packages and a good salary, or you can pursue an equally lucrative self-employment path. The down side is that professional license means you will be personally liable for any professional recommendations you make, so if a client does what you say and suffers harm because of it, they can (proverbially speaking, but possibly quite literally) take your house from you. But you make a ton of money for taking on that kind of risk. A full general-partner in one of the big four accounting firms will make, not six-figure incomes, but SEVEN-figure incomes. Of course there aren't very many of those full-parnter positions available in the world, and they bear *ALL* the liability of their firm personally, so the risk is unimaginable (and don't think the risk isn't real - think of Arthur Anderson!), which is what justifies that kind of salary.

I get it. You can make more money. But I don't get why a 'wanderer' should be directed to these degrees. These studies are often very long and what if he/she wants to do something else? (They are wanderers you know?) Other options are limited because of the corresponding degrees, not to mention the huge debts.

So before selecting your major, or changing majors, you should consider this little fill-in-the blank exercise:
I am going to major in _______ because I have the objective of _____________ and this major will help me achieve this objective because _____________.
For some people this will be so trivial an exercise as to be unnecessary, but for others it might be very insightful.

Wouldn't wanderers not know what they want to achieve and why? I know I wouldn't had a clue how to fill this in in highschool.

For those who are already far advanced along the path of their major (e.g. in their senior year), and are worried they may have made a mistake, you need to think about why you chose that major in the first place. You may just need to spend an extra semester or two to change your major (if you can come up with *good* responses to the blanks above). Or you can continue to slug it out to the end and just be aware of the limitations facing you. They don't have to be limitations if you have a passion for the subject, or a good plan in place, but if you majored in it "just because" then you face a potentially more difficult time getting the big payoff in your career. If you do have a strong passion for that subject and you can find jobs directly on-target to that major (and if you are passionate about it you probably already belong to one or more groups dedicated to that field and have probably formed some degree of a network which can get you pointed in all the right directions), your passion and enthusiasm will just naturally come through on any interview and if your prospective employer is equally passionate about what they are doing, they will go out of their way to make opportunities for you. Business owners always want to hire people who are not only good at what they do, but also enjoy what they do. So if you started out in a particular major just because, and you don't want to, or can't afford to, spend the extra time to change majors, try to become very passionate about your subject. Join appropriate school clubs, and especially national organizations if available (student discounts are often available - if you must, ask your parents for financial help with any membership fees). Go to the association meetings and network, network, network.

Agreed.
(although I would've said it a bit different and shorter)

Now I've been framing my enter discussion in the context of career decisions, and it sure is true that there are reasons unrelated to career choice for choosing a given major, and ultimately 10 years down the road it almost certainly won't matter one whit whether you majored in psychology or english or medieval studies or what have you, they will all lead, very broadly speaking, to about the same place: middle management. To that extent, what you major in, if it isn't a professional field with a well defined career path, is just about irrelevent. Well, unless you decide to pursue a graduate degree in that field, in which case it matters a great deal what you majored in, but a lot of people going into graduate school have a pretty good idea what is they want to do with their advanced degree, so I won't speak any more about that. So to the extent that your major will probably end up being irrelevent in the long-term, then sure, study what you enjoy and don't worry about it.

irrelevant to thread. I don't get why you had to say so much stuff about ''middle-managment'' in this whole post.

It's not uncommon to see people in their 30s or 40s (compared to people in their 20s or 50s, that is) deciding to strike out on their own, opening up their own business doing something they really want to do, and which has absolutely nothing at all to do with their choosen major - a florist shop, a catering business, offering snorkeling training or surfing lessons, whatever it is they enjoy doing. This is why I say a business major can't really go wrong for those who are having trouble picking a major - if nothing else, it will help you understand how to run your business if you do end up going that route, or if you stay in the corporate world you will likely advance up the management chain further, faster, and since a great many career paths ultimately lead to management jobs in the end anyways...

Since for me business studies counts as a mass study with much options like as Communications studies etc., I don't mind that wanders get a nudge to this study. It's different with medicine or law for me.

Money may not be able to buy happiness, but believe you me, below a certain income threshold it is pretty darned hard to be happy, so it sure can help at least up to a certain point. For all you psychology or sociology majors, you can think in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs

Even with a ''non-professional'' degree I'm pretty sure the regular person can still be happy according to Maslow's hierarchy. It's usually the people without any degree that come below the certain threshold.

Now going on to the other post from marrymehyori.
(but since this post is too big I'll just go on in another post)

Edit// it seems I can't post double, so I'll just wait till someone posts something and then post my other post. (My posts are too long and cutting quotes seems to make everything confusing again. And since I spend time writing my stuff I'm definetly going to post my other post.)

[fihe]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA MEDIEVAL STUDIES
never knew there was such a major.

general humanities doesn't seem extremely useful :\

[sirce]

Yay, thank you for posting fihe.

First, I want to observe that my previous post was primarily directed to those who live, or plan to live, in or near major urban areas - if you live out in Idaho or Nebraska the realities of your situation will be very different. But if you're in Los Angeles or New York or Atlanta or some such, what I wrote should be worth a read.
Also, I should like to emphasize the importance of getting an internship - it will both help you get a better idea of if a given career field is suitable for you, and also make it vastly easier to get a job in that career field, if you do decide you like it. I sure wish I had done an internship myself...

I live in the Netherlands, so my situation might be different, but I still want to answer.
I also think internships are useful. Or anything that might give you the advantage when trying to find a job after graduating when you and your classmates are trying to get in the same companies. Like related parttime jobs, clubs, courses etc.. But everyone should already know this and this applies to any study.

I assume you're talking to me, and I added the bit at the end about money not equalling happiness (but it helps to a point), and non-career reasons for choosing a major. I also even mentioned several job related reasons why what you choose for your major probably won't be relevent to your long-term career, so just pick a major you find interesting.

But really, the #1 reason for going to college at all, whether you care to recognize it or not, is because of a phenomena that sociologists call "professionalization of the work place." I could trace it all back to WWII and the GI bill if you want me to, but that would be rather a lot of writing and it would have to wait til next week if you want to hear it. Even if you don't recognize it, your parents probably do (if only implicitly), which is why so many parents are so anxious for their kids to go to a good college.

It's really something of a shame since there is very good money to be made by competent tradesmen (electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc), where you don't need a college degree to pursue those careers. But white collar jobs seem to be what parents want for their kids regardless of the comparative pay situation - it's a social thing as much as a financial one. Also the thought is probably there that a corporate job is more stable than self-employment or contracting, which was certainly true when our parents were kids (and may well be true to this day in countries other than the USA), but is not true today, and a lot of parents (I'm primarily talking those 50+ years old) probably don't fully grasp the totality of this transformation of the corporate world.

Now we are going back to the 'trade'-people and some other stuff which is kinda unrelated.

You may not think your college degree is about your job, but your parents sure do, and society and employers definitely do. A lot of kids going to college directly from high school are doing so because of parental pressure, not because they have any real thought of what they are doing. This is why you have so many students wondering what in the world they should major in - they are clueless because they don't understand why they are there and what the implications will be of their degree. There's nothing wrong with that per se, they were thrown into the situation more or less without any idea of why, so that's a very obvious and natural reaction and they're just trying their best to cope.

True, but I don't really get the first sentence. Ofcourse a college degree anticipates some kinda related job.

If you have the chance, if there are any older students (not elderly, but in their 30s or 40s) in your classes, talk to them about why they didn't go from high school to college directly, what their experience was in the work force, and why *they* are back getting their degree.

You can listen, but in the end everyone is different.

Really what you *should* be learning in college (and not all professors teach this, or even want/try to teach this, but historically this was the case) is *how* to think. How to reason, how to apply logic, how to solve problems. To the extent your major helps you learn those skills, it was useful and had a valuable point to it. But it is up to YOU to convey to your future employers that you did learn those skills, regardless of what your major was and regardless of the nature of the job for which you are applying.

Agreed.

You can deny it all day long, but the reality is that very, very, very few people ever get a job that is directly on target to their major. There are not nearly as many openings in clinical psychology jobs available as there are psychology majors graduating in any given year (and those who are serious about working in the field of psychology as an analyst will probably get a masters degree anyways, so your bachelor's probably isn't going to qualify you for that job regardless, or at the very least you will be at a great disadvantage in competing for those jobs against those who do have the masters). Similarly for comparative literature, philosophy and a lot of other majors. There *ARE* some fields where demand greatly outstrips the annual number of new graduates, such as nursing and accounting, and you *MUST* have the corresponding major if you want to get a job in those areas, but there are overwhelmingly more majors that lack such demand than there are that have it. Indeed, a lot of majors don't even have a proper career path (other than university professor) corresponding to them.

But you can try. I think it's your own choice to try. My choice is to try. I don't want any regrets.

If you simply aren't interested in being an engineer or a lawyer or a nurse or an accountant, that's fine - they are extremely tough jobs to hold down and not everybody has the temperament for them, that's part of the reason there is such a high demand in those fields - not just anybody can be successful in them. So if you aren't going to pursue such a career path, than the act of choose a major takes on an extremely different character, as I've previously discussed.

Sorry, but this sounds arrogant. It's like you're saying that these jobs are the hardest and only 'the elite' get them.

__________________

And that's what I have to say so far. I wrote my stuff in pieces and after each other because I couldn't write my aswer without sounding it really confusing. And I tried to make it short, since with all the quotes the posts would already get really long.