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What Is "evil"? Is there such thing?

#1 User is offline   avant-garde 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 06:36 PM

Does having power give justification for one's actions?

In a world where people strive to achieve justice and equality, people tend to look down on the effects of concentrated power. Many people try to assume that patience wins out when compared to power but they ignore the fact that power struggle is a constant, inevitable force in the universe. Power exerts the greatest influence in our society, and can embody many of the determing factors that we take for granted.

It is a myth that democracy allows people to impartially divide power and make more effective decisions than people have done in the past. In democratic societies, conflicts still exist wherever one looks. The majority uses its powers to tilt the law in favor of itself. The same applies to a monarch who uses martial law to exert his influence. Whether it be in the form of the populace or the military, power always allows one party to win while leaving the other dissatisfied.

Conflict of interest motivates humans to exploit their powers in order to gain a slight or significant edge over their adversaries. The one who can most effectively utilize his powers has a greater probability of surviving or meeting his objectives, thus bringing him the greater goods.

On a broader field, patience can be considered a form of power as well. If "the power" to be patient somehow gives a person the edge over another in competition, then obviously the one who is endowed with patience has overpowered the other as a result.

In a Darwinistic world of endless competition, any attribute, inclination, or mutation that allows one to achieve a greater chance of survival is a form of power. We may detest the tyrannical aspects of power when they are used against us, but it is evident that the phrase "might makes right" is more insightful than it seems.



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"We are predisposed to regard any conflict as a clash between good and evil rather than as simply a clash between conflicting interests." - James Fulbright

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." - Shakespeare

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#2 User is offline   daBear 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 07:15 PM

QUOTE (avant-garde @ Jul 30 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Does having power give justification for one's actions?


It is a myth that democracy allows people to impartially divide power and make more effective decisions than people have done in the past. In democratic societies, conflicts still exist wherever one looks. The majority uses its powers to tilt the law in favor of itself. The same applies to a monarch who uses martial law to exert his influence. Whether it be in the form of the populace or the military, power always allows one party to win while leaving the other dissatisfied.

Conflict of interest motivates humans to exploit their powers in order to gain a slight or significant edge over their adversaries. The one who can most effectively utilize his powers has a greater probability of surviving or meeting his objectives, thus bringing him the greater goods.



How true..........

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#3 User is offline   BrOkEn_DrEaMz 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 09:44 PM

There's really no such thing as good and evil, or right and wrong. It's just all how we human view things as....


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#4 User is offline   khul 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 10:49 PM

I can't disagree with all of the comments here more. There is such a thing as evil. There is no way that it is just our general conceptions that define what is good and what is evil. My reasoning is simple; if it is the product of our society's flow of thought, then it would shift over time (You mentioned Darwin right?). If our group's thoughts shift over time, then it is possible that society would give the OK for things like rape, murder and child molestation. That sort of thing will never happen in reality. It is human nature for the "good" to protect the weak, or confront "evils" using what ever social system is available.

The whole "greater good" coming from the fulfillment of power doesn't really makes sense to me. If it were true, there would be no rebellions, no riots, no peasant uprisings or the great variety of political systems. Public sentiment of what is good for the society is never quenched by what the ruler says. If that were true, all of the tyrants in all of history would have been our greatest leaders.

I also believe you are incorrect to assume that power = corruption. There is a distinct difference between people that use power and people that abuse power. How can you say that one person who uses their influence to escape punishment for a white collar crime is the same as someone who uses their influence to make a girl's school in Ethiopia? I can't see how it is not clear that one man does good and one does evil.

I also don't understand why someone defined conflict as a bad thing. I mean Democracy IS all about conflict is it not? That was the idea. The purpose is to moderate decisions instead having them be subject to extremes.

I have to suspect that people who claim there is no such thing as good or evil are simply justifying their self-centered under-achievements. I don't mean to insult you here; I would just like to point out that even if you don't believe in the theory, there is still a quantifiable benefit to believing in practice. Would you rather the world be filled with people that only look out for themselves, or people who build schools for underprivileged girls in Ethiopia? That decision can only take place on an individual level, so it's up to you.

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#5 User is offline   avant-garde 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:05 PM

QUOTE (khul @ Jul 30 2008, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't disagree with all of the comments here more. There is such a thing as evil. There is no way that it is just our general conceptions that define what is good and what is evil. My reasoning is simple; if it is the product of our society's flow of thought, then it would shift over time (You mentioned Darwin right?). If our group's thoughts shift over time, then it is possible that society would give the OK for things like rape, murder and child molestation. That sort of thing will never happen in reality. It is human nature for the "good" to protect the weak, or confront "evils" using what ever social system is available.

The whole "greater good" coming from the fulfillment of power doesn't really makes sense to me. If it were true, there would be no rebellions, no riots, no peasant uprisings or the great variety of political systems. Public sentiment of what is good for the society is never quenched by what the ruler says. If that were true, all of the tyrants in all of history would have been our greatest leaders.

I also believe you are incorrect to assume that power = corruption. There is a distinct difference between people that use power and people that abuse power. How can you say that one person who uses their influence to escape punishment for a white collar crime is the same as someone who uses their influence to make a girl's school in Ethiopia? I can't see how it is not clear that one man does good and one does evil.

I also don't understand why someone defined conflict as a bad thing. I mean Democracy IS all about conflict is it not? That was the idea. The purpose is to moderate decisions instead having them be subject to extremes.

I have to suspect that people who claim there is no such thing as good or evil are simply justifying their self-centered under-achievements. I don't mean to insult you here; I would just like to point out that even if you don't believe in the theory, there is still a quantifiable benefit to believing in practice. Would you rather the world be filled with people that only look out for themselves, or people who build schools for underprivileged girls in Ethiopia? That decision can only take place on an individual level, so it's up to you.


I have to say that the whole thing is just speculation.
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#6 User is offline   khul 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 12:04 AM

So then quotes from Shakespeare and James Fulbright are empirical evidence? Of course all comments about the matter are speculation. I am not God or some other deity brought about by science. So, I attempt to persuade by reasoning instead.

There is such a thing as good and evil. Simply because we use the term proves that, whatever it may be, exists as surely as the color orange exists. The only thing that is up for questioning is whether or not good and evil is a social construct or a divine one. As long as society exists, we will still use "good and evil" to describe even the smallest things.

If all of society gets rid of the words good and evil, and says that the criminal is the same as the volunteer, we will simply make up new words that define the difference between the two. Just because the words change, doesn't mean the difference they describe has changed at all. Why? Because the distinction between acts of good and evil are important to our society, either ethically or as a means of preservation of our own.
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#7 User is offline   belle_kd1413 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 12:32 AM

"EVIL" is such a big word..
i don't really think there's evil...

well, my opinion, maybe just got dumbass people doing wrong stuff.
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#8 User is offline   gem2461 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 02:26 AM

Those posts are just some big blocks of words I'm too lazy to read.

Anyways, watch "Most Evil" in Discovery Channel. 5555!
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#9 User is offline   Malice_Kaiser 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:19 AM

QUOTE (khul @ Jul 30 2008, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't disagree with all of the comments here more. There is such a thing as evil. There is no way that it is just our general conceptions that define what is good and what is evil. My reasoning is simple; if it is the product of our society's flow of thought, then it would shift over time (You mentioned Darwin right?). If our group's thoughts shift over time, then it is possible that society would give the OK for things like rape, murder and child molestation. That sort of thing will never happen in reality. It is human nature for the "good" to protect the weak, or confront "evils" using what ever social system is available.

The whole "greater good" coming from the fulfillment of power doesn't really makes sense to me. If it were true, there would be no rebellions, no riots, no peasant uprisings or the great variety of political systems. Public sentiment of what is good for the society is never quenched by what the ruler says. If that were true, all of the tyrants in all of history would have been our greatest leaders.

I also believe you are incorrect to assume that power = corruption. There is a distinct difference between people that use power and people that abuse power. How can you say that one person who uses their influence to escape punishment for a white collar crime is the same as someone who uses their influence to make a girl's school in Ethiopia? I can't see how it is not clear that one man does good and one does evil.

I also don't understand why someone defined conflict as a bad thing. I mean Democracy IS all about conflict is it not? That was the idea. The purpose is to moderate decisions instead having them be subject to extremes.

I have to suspect that people who claim there is no such thing as good or evil are simply justifying their self-centered under-achievements. I don't mean to insult you here; I would just like to point out that even if you don't believe in the theory, there is still a quantifiable benefit to believing in practice. Would you rather the world be filled with people that only look out for themselves, or people who build schools for underprivileged girls in Ethiopia? That decision can only take place on an individual level, so it's up to you.

No one is saying that "evil" actions don't exist.
However, I can't speak for others. So in my own personal, opinion, no, evil technically doesn't exist. Why? Because it's all RELATIVE. And in the simplest terms, what's evil to one person might not be evil to the next.

QUOTE (khul @ Jul 30 2008, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't disagree with all of the comments here more. There is such a thing as evil. There is no way that it is just our general conceptions that define what is good and what is evil. My reasoning is simple; if it is the product of our society's flow of thought, then it would shift over time (You mentioned Darwin right?). If our group's thoughts shift over time, then it is possible that society would give the OK for things like rape, murder and child molestation. That sort of thing will never happen in reality. It is human nature for the "good" to protect the weak, or confront "evils" using what ever social system is available.

This part of your post in particular is full of logical fallacies.
It is FULLY possible that evil is just our general conceptions. It's like I said before, what is evil to one person is not evil to the next. How could this be anything BUT our own conceptions? And your reasoning behind it only argues for this side even more. The concept of evil DOES shift over time. Just because most societies don't deem rape and murdur as OK doesn't mean their concept of evil hasn't shifted over time; in other words just because it's a possibility that didn't happen doesn't mean the entire theory is false. You basically just said "Because THIS VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE did not happen, the entire theory is bunk." You're dealing absolutes, so like I said before that's a logical fallacy.
But take a look at something like slavery. There is no doubt in my mind that if you ask people on the streets today, they'll think that the African slave trade was an evil thing, that the multitudes of abuse and lynchings that went on was in fact evil. But back then? Not so much, people had a different mind set. These things were the NORM.
Another thing is execution. Years ago in the United States it was legal to execute people for crimes OTHER than the murder (needless to say there was a LOT of discrimination and profiling going on). While I'm sure there are a few idiots around who still think that this kind of carelessness is okay, the percentage of people who think it's EVIL has probably gone up.

A more modern example is "terrorist" groups. Do you really think they're sitting over there going "We're so evil, let's kill some good guys"? No, because their definition of evil, of right and wrong, is completely different from ours. Most Americans would say we're the good guys, they're the bad, but I'm sure over in the Middle East they have a different perspective; after all, WE'RE the ones occupying THEIR country.

And then it all goes back to the idea of shifting definitions of evil: in 100 years the next generation will be reading about the war in text books and maybe they'll be thinking of it how we think of the Vietnam War now...
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#10 User is offline   avant-garde 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 09:50 AM

QUOTE (khul @ Jul 30 2008, 03:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So then quotes from Shakespeare and James Fulbright are empirical evidence? Of course all comments about the matter are speculation. I am not God or some other deity brought about by science. So, I attempt to persuade by reasoning instead.

There is such a thing as good and evil. Simply because we use the term proves that, whatever it may be, exists as surely as the color orange exists. The only thing that is up for questioning is whether or not good and evil is a social construct or a divine one. As long as society exists, we will still use "good and evil" to describe even the smallest things.

If all of society gets rid of the words good and evil, and says that the criminal is the same as the volunteer, we will simply make up new words that define the difference between the two. Just because the words change, doesn't mean the difference they describe has changed at all. Why? Because the distinction between acts of good and evil are important to our society, either ethically or as a means of preservation of our own.


So, does Al Qaeda consider themselves to be evil? Does Kim Jong il consider himself to be evil? Does everyone look up to America and the West as "good"? Who came up with the term evil?

Humans created language, thus humans have the power to change it as well. There is no significance in the term evil; if one person includes killing in his definition of evil, then anyone he sees that kills is evil. If some other person defines it another way, then his or her perception will differ. Then it all comes down to, who holds the absolute truth? Nobody. It's nothing more than a conflict of interest; humans generally tend to view anyone that stands in their way to gain something as evil.
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#11 User is offline   cannotfindserver 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 11:41 AM

yes there's such a thing as evil and it makes sinners out of people who should have been good.
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#12 User is offline   daehanminguk1345 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 01:07 PM

Well, "good" and "evil" are both relative terms. They differ from person to person based on individual perception of morals. Now if you ask me, "evil" is anyone who inflicts harm (whether it be physical or emotional, insignificant or significant) on another knowing fully that what they do is causing distress to the victim of their actions.
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#13 User is offline   sushisimo 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 06:30 PM

what is evil?
what is love?
what is happiness?

...what is the meaning of life?

Its just what you think it is. everyone's different.

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#14 User is offline   avant-garde 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE (daehanminguk1345 @ Jul 30 2008, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, "good" and "evil" are both relative terms. They differ from person to person based on individual perception of morals. Now if you ask me, "evil" is anyone who inflicts harm (whether it be physical or emotional, insignificant or significant) on another knowing fully that what they do is causing distress to the victim of their actions.


Yeah, but where do you "draw the line"?

I could sit here and eat a hamburger, but the components of it could be split up and some starving family in Africa could have been eating it instead of me. Yet as I sit here and choose to eat the hamburger, I'm "killing off" lives across the world that really need the hamburger to satisfy their basic needs.

Did I "steal the hamburger from them" or did I "earn it by working for it"?

It all depends on how you frame it; both ways make sense, and that shows that it's impossible to pinpoint what is evil.
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#15 User is offline   Miss Vivienne 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 08:13 PM

Lol, you guys. I'm tired of people leaving ridiculously short posts thinking they know what they're saying. :|
I guess in all I don't really have an opinion on this. Don't mind me, I'm just lurking. tongue.gif
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#16 User is offline   avant-garde 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 09:24 PM


"War does not determine who is right - only who is left.” - Bertrand Russell

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#17 User is offline   luckymonkbrand777 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 09:58 PM

I think that before we state whether evil exists or not, is absolute or relative, and fling examples of "evil", we should all define what is evil.

With respect to the perspective of humans, evil is the nature of any intent that induces malicious actions for the purpose of serving to one or more base desires. By base desires, I refer to any selfish wants, especially ones that are secular AND do not support a group's cause (that is not evil). It is up to society to collectively determine what actions are evil.
One caveat to the definition above. What is evil should not be confused with what is "wrong". One who committed "wrong" actions is not necessarily evil because he or she did not carry malicious intent; however, evil actions are unequivocally wrong. For example, Manslaughter is wrong (at least in the USA), but not evil.

To clarify my point, a perfect example of an evil person is Joseph Stallin, the dictator of the Soviet Union from 1922 to 1953. In short, he was responsible for ruining the economy, thus creating wide-spread famine and, without providing any relief, killed millions of Russians. He imprisoned opposing writers, professors, and officials to the Gulag labor camps. Furthermore, he ordered assassinations on his closest comrades, who served him during the Russian Civil War, and even murdered his 2nd wife. Worse yet, he ushered propaganda to condemn the innocent of his own crimes so that he appeared innocent before his Russian citizens. All of this was done for one reason only - to keep himself in authority of the Soviet Union. That is, in my definition, evil.

A lot has been said about power, but there wasn't a clear connection between power and evil. From the posts, it seems that people are implying that power is evil. Or that the one with more "power" is evil. In either case, both are incorrect. But, before delving into this inaccuracy, it is imperative that power has a definition. From what I see, I am interpreting that the power we are talking about is authoritative power, or the power that is vested in a position to influence those under that authority.

If that definition is agreeable, then one cannot absolutely correlate power with evil (Again the evil defined above). Leaders such as Mohandas Gandhi, Martin Luther King, President FDR, and so forth had demonstrated peaceful and benevolent exercise of their power. However, Stallin, Hitler, Mussolini, Nero, and other similar dictators/rulers abused their authority and caused millions to suffer. Without going into too much detail about each leader, one can observe that the use of power, and for what purposes, dictates whether or not evil was committed.

Furthermore, I am very skeptical of what avant-garde stated (sorry to point you out). I don't believe that you can prove most of what you say. Is it really true that people are striving towards justice and equality? If so, I would love to live in that sort of world, because what I see is not as idealistic; there is a wide spectrum of goals that people stride forward to, some of which are benevolent, others more selfish, and still more that are apathetic, and the few (I hope just a few) that are purely malicious. I could tell you of many examples, but its best to turn on the news, or read books and articles about human history.

I'm also doubtful about the following , "It is a myth that democracy allows people to impartially divide power and make more effective decisions than people have done in the past. In democratic societies, conflicts still exist wherever one looks. The majority uses its powers to tilt the law in favor of itself. The same applies to a monarch who uses martial law to exert his influence. Whether it be in the form of the populace or the military, power always allows one party to win while leaving the other dissatisfied.

First, it has no application to the definition of evil, or the nature of democracy. You're simply stating that the majority enjoys its political influence, while the minority is subject to the former's political power. Whether its evil or not depends on what the majority decides; Cruelly enslaving the minority for petty whims would be evil, but providing funds to public schools instead of public hospitals is not necessarily evil.

Second, I can agree that democracy doesn't impartially divides power (whether it was a myth or not that can be contended in another soompi forum). But, in comparison to communism or dictatorship, democracy is a boon, since people, not a person, are more effectively able to make decisions. Because of democracy, the people are generally represented better in making decisions compared to oligarchies and monarchies. Futhermore, in the US, checks and balances are installed into the government. So, even if the majority has power over the populace, there are balances that help prevent abuse of the majority's power. Now, it may be true that not everyone is "satisfied", but it works better than Communism. If you don't agree, name me one existing country that is purely communist. Dictatorships can be either a hit-or-miss, depending on the leader. Usually though, from what I've read, its a miss because it only takes one mad man to devastate a country.

Wow. Okay I'm done talking

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#18 User is offline   daisyy 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 10:01 PM

evil is the opposite of good.
and what is good, you ask...?
the opposite of evil. haaa.

LOLOL kidding don't shoot me sad.gif

i believe one's morals/values justifies 'good' and 'evil'. the majority of people share similar views, thus creating a common viewpoint and standard of what it is in society.

cliche talk. mmkay. i'm done.
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#19 User is offline   avant-garde 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 11:03 PM

"Every piece of information we process gets evaluated for its bearing on the self. Does it threaten our goals, does it support them, or is it neutral? News of the fall of the stock market will upset the banker, but it might reinforce the sense of self of the political activist." - Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
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#20 User is offline   hachi_x3 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 11:03 PM

Ugh, if this topic was made when I was still in my humanities class I would have a better comment to make, but sadly I've forgotten a large chunk of what I've learned about this stuff and morality and whatnot. So I'll just give my personal opinion rather than my academic outlook.

There is no real answer to this question, since everyone can provide an argument against each other's arguments.

To me, evil, like everything else, is just an opinion. It only exists because we believe it exists. Same thing with the concept of "truth." We created the concept of evil. Humans are the only beings that live on the ideas of good and evil. You don't see animals racking their brains out over the concept of morality. They don't create laws and condemn each other when they do something "bad." That's cause bad doesn't exist for them. They just live.

It's like asking, does the color red exist?
For a blind person, no it doesn't. How can that person know the concept of what red is when he/she has never seen it? (this could be where the whole "does god exist" question leaps out lol)

Even from there, the concept of red can't be explained. What IS red? Why is something red, and not green? Cause we chose to call it red. The concept of evil and the name "evil" could have easily been switched with the concept good and the name "good." Murdering someone could have been known as "good" if we had chosen to give the act that name.


I think evil is basically a product of society, a means of control in order to progress.

Ugh I dunno if any of that made sense. It's 3 am, and I randomly found this intriguing thread> I'm tired ._.
If only my humanities teacher read this this thread XD I bet he'd have a whole essay to write. We had some intense debates on the existence of morality. Good days, senior year. Unfortunately, summer ruins the brain! =O Mine at least.

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