Im opening a new thread to discuss this ... because this conversation has been dragged on from
Girls Asking Boys Out.
And i don't think we should discuss anything unrelated to that topic anymore, since it has moved on to a different topic. So if anyone interested to give your view on this matter, please reply here!
do you agree or disagree? explain why..
and why wouldn't it apply's same to the girls?
Guy Who Chase's, Loses Respect & Has Low-self Esteem?
#2
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:14 PM
Any gender that chases after someone and fails, would not lose
respect in my opinion. In fact they would gain respect for the fact
that they have the balls to put it on the line. They are taking their
life into their own hands and not just waiting for things to happen.
What is there to lose respect for or have low-self esteem about?
You have an answer instead of potentially never knowing and things
never happening, then you can move on.
Edit - I'm assuming by chase you don't mean like full out stalker obsession
but rather go after what he wants by confronting the girl and saying something to her.
respect in my opinion. In fact they would gain respect for the fact
that they have the balls to put it on the line. They are taking their
life into their own hands and not just waiting for things to happen.
What is there to lose respect for or have low-self esteem about?
You have an answer instead of potentially never knowing and things
never happening, then you can move on.
Edit - I'm assuming by chase you don't mean like full out stalker obsession
but rather go after what he wants by confronting the girl and saying something to her.
‎"You have to do what others won't, to achieve what others don't" ~ Iron Mike Tyson
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#3
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:28 PM
Yes. If you chase someone, it shows you have no game.
#4
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:43 PM
lol you got this from me didn't you. 
but let's first Remind everyone of what I mean by CHASING.
Let me introduce you to Andrew. He's the man. He's a nice guy.
Need a ride somewhere? Call Andrew.
Damn, forgot to bring money? Borrow from Andrew
Hungry and need some lunch at school? Andrew wouldn't mind sharing
Need help at homework? Andrew wouldn't mind helping you even if he's meant to do something.
Call Andrew. Call Andrew. Call Andrew. DUDE HE'S THE MAN, LIEK, HE NEVER SAYS NO, HE'S SO SWEET LOLZ.
so He likes this girl. she haven't been showing signs that she likes him. So he got this urge to Chase her. Being a guy, he will think Logically. And yes, all guys do think logically, this is the difference between girls and guys.
I don't know if this is true... but do you know why Guys can actually excel better in HS even if he didn't study, compared to a girl who didn't study as well? Because guys use logic, and girls don't, or at least not as logical as guys.
Look at the threads here. Girls ask very stupid questions that are actually fairly obvious If you think over it logically. But they can't, because they think love is not logical and all those things, they think this world is not logical. Explain God and the Creation of our planet? That's not logical though!! It contradicts what the bible says or what the scientist says!! So they think logic could not solve it.
So well, seeing that he thinks logically, if he were to impress a girl, what should you do? what would YOU GUYS do? Do the things he does above? being nice to the girl, treating her like queen? WHY OF COURSE
after all it's the most logical thing to do, what girl don't like a nice guy? Anyone don't like?
Aren't you meant to show how you're a really good bf?
But he's confused, because all these bad ass guys get liked, WHY??/ clearly they're not gonna be a good bf!! but his logic always wins, and thinks he just didn't do good enough, which makes him even more nicer.
But should you do that though? NO, but seeing that guys think logically, most guys will think that's the way.
That is what I mean by Chasing. If you don't think that's what it means by chasing, well hey I've been talking all those crap assuming that that's what I mean by chasing lol.
So now. Do you respect Andrew? nope. Why? Because he does everything and never says no.
Need something? Oh There's Andrew, he'd help me. How can you respect him? He does everything. Aren't people like this get bullied at school? DOn't they get bullied because no one respect him?
It does mean you have low self esteem as well. to me at least.
I say before. A guy can wake up one day and look at his window, "oh that girl is so fine, I wouldn't mind her being my gf" Of course it won't happen since no one wants to have a relationship without knowing the other party better, but I did say "he doesn't mind"
If this is the chase, why would he chase the girl? eg. Being like Andrew? He can fall in love with 10 girls in one day.
The reason why he chase her must be because of only one reason.
He can't get another girl, have trouble getting one, anything along those lines. By this it also means he's shy, or whatsoever. Shy guys, are shy because....? They have low self esteem.
If you can spot girls you like easily, the only reason why you can't get close to her is because you're too shy to make the move.
We also know for a fact.... That if you think finding a girl is hard... that means you probably don't socialise much. If you don't socialise much, what else could it be if it's not because of he's a shy guy? Maybe there are many reasons, but we know a shy guy don't socialise much.
See again, I'm thinking logically here lol.
Low self esteem guy->shy guy->find it hard to get girls->chase, because he thinks she's precious.
I did say it's bad, but I never say it's forbidden or not allowed. I only say not encouraged lol.
EDIT: I'm talking about teen relationships here.
Nothing that goes towards marriage. Seeing that I'm still a teen, and most soompi-ers are teen anyway.
I DON'T KNOW if this will apply for marriage-ish. I certainly don't think so, but how can I know. I'm far from there.
but let's first Remind everyone of what I mean by CHASING.
Let me introduce you to Andrew. He's the man. He's a nice guy.
Need a ride somewhere? Call Andrew.
Damn, forgot to bring money? Borrow from Andrew
Hungry and need some lunch at school? Andrew wouldn't mind sharing
Need help at homework? Andrew wouldn't mind helping you even if he's meant to do something.
Call Andrew. Call Andrew. Call Andrew. DUDE HE'S THE MAN, LIEK, HE NEVER SAYS NO, HE'S SO SWEET LOLZ.
so He likes this girl. she haven't been showing signs that she likes him. So he got this urge to Chase her. Being a guy, he will think Logically. And yes, all guys do think logically, this is the difference between girls and guys.
I don't know if this is true... but do you know why Guys can actually excel better in HS even if he didn't study, compared to a girl who didn't study as well? Because guys use logic, and girls don't, or at least not as logical as guys.
Look at the threads here. Girls ask very stupid questions that are actually fairly obvious If you think over it logically. But they can't, because they think love is not logical and all those things, they think this world is not logical. Explain God and the Creation of our planet? That's not logical though!! It contradicts what the bible says or what the scientist says!! So they think logic could not solve it.
So well, seeing that he thinks logically, if he were to impress a girl, what should you do? what would YOU GUYS do? Do the things he does above? being nice to the girl, treating her like queen? WHY OF COURSE
after all it's the most logical thing to do, what girl don't like a nice guy? Anyone don't like?Aren't you meant to show how you're a really good bf?
But he's confused, because all these bad ass guys get liked, WHY??/ clearly they're not gonna be a good bf!! but his logic always wins, and thinks he just didn't do good enough, which makes him even more nicer.
But should you do that though? NO, but seeing that guys think logically, most guys will think that's the way.
That is what I mean by Chasing. If you don't think that's what it means by chasing, well hey I've been talking all those crap assuming that that's what I mean by chasing lol.
So now. Do you respect Andrew? nope. Why? Because he does everything and never says no.
Need something? Oh There's Andrew, he'd help me. How can you respect him? He does everything. Aren't people like this get bullied at school? DOn't they get bullied because no one respect him?
It does mean you have low self esteem as well. to me at least.
I say before. A guy can wake up one day and look at his window, "oh that girl is so fine, I wouldn't mind her being my gf" Of course it won't happen since no one wants to have a relationship without knowing the other party better, but I did say "he doesn't mind"
If this is the chase, why would he chase the girl? eg. Being like Andrew? He can fall in love with 10 girls in one day.
The reason why he chase her must be because of only one reason.
He can't get another girl, have trouble getting one, anything along those lines. By this it also means he's shy, or whatsoever. Shy guys, are shy because....? They have low self esteem.
If you can spot girls you like easily, the only reason why you can't get close to her is because you're too shy to make the move.
We also know for a fact.... That if you think finding a girl is hard... that means you probably don't socialise much. If you don't socialise much, what else could it be if it's not because of he's a shy guy? Maybe there are many reasons, but we know a shy guy don't socialise much.
See again, I'm thinking logically here lol.
Low self esteem guy->shy guy->find it hard to get girls->chase, because he thinks she's precious.
I did say it's bad, but I never say it's forbidden or not allowed. I only say not encouraged lol.
EDIT: I'm talking about teen relationships here.
Nothing that goes towards marriage. Seeing that I'm still a teen, and most soompi-ers are teen anyway.
I DON'T KNOW if this will apply for marriage-ish. I certainly don't think so, but how can I know. I'm far from there.
#5
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 02:53 PM
After reading the story about andrew, I still have no clue what you mean by chasing.
#6
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:42 PM
QUOTE (Shikabane Hime @ Dec 26 2008, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes. If you chase someone, it shows you have no game.
So if someone chases and gets what they want then they too have no game?
So next time I see a lady I like the look of I'll hang back by the wall with ma boiz, stare at her a bit and hope she notices me.
Pfft. Games are for children.
#7
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:44 PM
QUOTE (Harbl @ Dec 26 2008, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So if someone chases and gets what they want then they too have no game?
So next time I see a lady I like the look of I'll hang back by the wall with ma boiz, stare at her a bit and hope she notices me.
Pfft. Games are for children.
So next time I see a lady I like the look of I'll hang back by the wall with ma boiz, stare at her a bit and hope she notices me.
Pfft. Games are for children.
Games are for women
#8
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:47 PM
QUOTE (Makaveli @ Dec 26 2008, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Edit - I'm assuming by chase you don't mean like full out stalker obsession
but rather go after what he wants by confronting the girl and saying something to her.
but rather go after what he wants by confronting the girl and saying something to her.
nahh i dont, i mean the whole concept of chase.. it doesnt mean lose respect & low self-esteemm does it?
since there are different type of chase..
한스 ㅋㅋ:
QUOTE
lol you got this from me didn't you
yep, u started this!
QUOTE
So now. Do you respect Andrew? nope. Why? Because he does everything and never says no.
Need something? Oh There's Andrew, he'd help me. How can you respect him? He does everything. Aren't people like this get bullied at school? DOn't they get bullied because no one respect him?
Need something? Oh There's Andrew, he'd help me. How can you respect him? He does everything. Aren't people like this get bullied at school? DOn't they get bullied because no one respect him?
No!! Just because Andrew got rejected by a girl.. for being nice! Does not mean that chasing will be disrespected!
You cant say that unless Andrew trys.. But u said Andrew doesnt like anyone else but her!
So that means he hasnt met anyone else!
Nice guys do get bullied but they being bullied for no reason!
If a guy gets bullied for being nice, dont blame the nice guy! Its the bully u should blame! They have no reason!
Shikabane Hime:
but u just said that if a guy chases, etc.. it shows he has no game.. and now u saying games are for woman..
so what is this so-called game.. that the guy is suppose to have?
#9
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 06:35 PM
If guys chase, then obviously you couldn't attract the girl in the first place.
Chasing just assumes that the girl dislikes you, so you need to win her favor by running after her affection o___o
With a mentality like that, he feels that the girl is worth more than him thus he thinks he has to catch up in order to be accepted by her. Being in this position, the guy probably has to do "whatever he can" for the girl, overly wanting her to know how far he can run for her and he also hopes he can cover the "difference" between the both of them. With all these favors and tasks, will she be touched? Most likely. BUT keeping in my mind she's not attracted to him. Would you take him? Probably not.
The truth is, if a man were to feel lesser than a woman and she SEES it, then that guy is a goner. She wouldn't like him no matter how hard he tries. This is where the term "trying too hard" comes in. On the other hand, if a guy projects a self-image that he doesn't feel lesser than the girl, there's no need for him to even try.
So you see, there's a fine difference to chasers and attractors
Remember that if a guy NEGLECTS to establish attraction and began by doing all sorts of goody-goody stuff for a woman she may be touched by the stuff the guy does. But that doesn't mean she will like the guy (In all likelihood, she even loses respect for him).
Chasing just assumes that the girl dislikes you, so you need to win her favor by running after her affection o___o
With a mentality like that, he feels that the girl is worth more than him thus he thinks he has to catch up in order to be accepted by her. Being in this position, the guy probably has to do "whatever he can" for the girl, overly wanting her to know how far he can run for her and he also hopes he can cover the "difference" between the both of them. With all these favors and tasks, will she be touched? Most likely. BUT keeping in my mind she's not attracted to him. Would you take him? Probably not.
The truth is, if a man were to feel lesser than a woman and she SEES it, then that guy is a goner. She wouldn't like him no matter how hard he tries. This is where the term "trying too hard" comes in. On the other hand, if a guy projects a self-image that he doesn't feel lesser than the girl, there's no need for him to even try.
So you see, there's a fine difference to chasers and attractors
Remember that if a guy NEGLECTS to establish attraction and began by doing all sorts of goody-goody stuff for a woman she may be touched by the stuff the guy does. But that doesn't mean she will like the guy (In all likelihood, she even loses respect for him).
♥______Although it’s a beautiful day, why is that only tears fill my eyes?☆
______________________________________________©VengeanceDoll
#10
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 08:30 PM
QUOTE
Nice guys do get bullied but they being bullied for no reason!
If a guy gets bullied for being nice, dont blame the nice guy! Its the bully u should blame! They have no reason!
If a guy gets bullied for being nice, dont blame the nice guy! Its the bully u should blame! They have no reason!
Well assuming that the nice guy is like Andrew, then there is a reason why they bully him.
Because they don't respect him.
Look at the bad ass guys. They don't get bullied, coz everyone respect them.
Why do people bully nice guys? because they know they won't fight back.
Why do they not bull the bad ass? because they'll fight back, not that they're afraid, but it's better to bully someone who won't fight back.
Yeah you can't blame the nice guy, but the nice guy should realise that he didn't really get respect and should change for his benefit.
QUOTE
No!! Just because Andrew got rejected by a girl.. for being nice! Does not mean that chasing will be disrespected!
You cant say that unless Andrew trys.. But u said Andrew doesnt like anyone else but her!
So that means he hasnt met anyone else!
You cant say that unless Andrew trys.. But u said Andrew doesnt like anyone else but her!
So that means he hasnt met anyone else!
so I guess you will respect the chase, but do you respect the person? Like I said, you need a certain level of respect, and he doesn't have that, and that's what I mean lol.
yes of course he doesn't like anyone else. That's why he "chase" her. If he likes another girl, why should she chase this one girl. Plus, most guys think logically like I said. and Logically, if you wanna show that you're a good boyfriend, what do you do? Of course only show that you only like her
Just because he doesn't like anyone else, how could that mean he never met anyone xD I fail to see how that works xD he probably just likes this certain girl lol.
QUOTE
but u just said that if a guy chases, etc.. it shows he has no game.. and now u saying games are for woman..
so what is this so-called game.. that the guy is suppose to have?
so what is this so-called game.. that the guy is suppose to have?
I think what he means is... the whole love thing is a game. The guy makes the game for the girl. The girl plays it. Guys makes it for the sake of the girl.
Maybe that's what he mean...
QUOTE
Chasing just assumes that the girl dislikes you, so you need to win her favor by running after her affection o___o
With a mentality like that, he feels that the girl is worth more than him thus he thinks he has to catch up in order to be accepted by her. Being in this position, the guy probably has to do "whatever he can" for the girl, overly wanting her to know how far he can run for her and he also hopes he can cover the "difference" between the both of them. With all these favors and tasks, will she be touched? Most likely. BUT keeping in my mind she's not attracted to him. Would you take him? Probably not.
With a mentality like that, he feels that the girl is worth more than him thus he thinks he has to catch up in order to be accepted by her. Being in this position, the guy probably has to do "whatever he can" for the girl, overly wanting her to know how far he can run for her and he also hopes he can cover the "difference" between the both of them. With all these favors and tasks, will she be touched? Most likely. BUT keeping in my mind she's not attracted to him. Would you take him? Probably not.
exactly what I mean, Written in much more better English than mine, seeing that I only get 10% in English, can't really expect me to write something really good like this XD
QUOTE
After reading the story about andrew, I still have no clue what you mean by chasing.
well.. I guess what i mean is he thinks he needs to impress the girl all the time lol.
Like giving her gifts, Being very nice, being romantic, being available, call her every time, etc lol.
Just showing how he's a good bf lol.
#11
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 09:05 PM
QUOTE (VengeanceDoll @ Dec 27 2008, 02:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah! I must say i agree with you!
There are guys who chase and they got the girl! But not always successful!
If u watch alot of k-dramas.. you see that the leading guy.. they never chase the girl.. they just click bcoz of all the things that happen.. but no one was chasing anyone! So yeah i see where u coming from!...
After they together.. dating would jsut be normal!
and when u watch the drama, there's always going to be some love triangle - the 1 who chases.. doesn't get the girl/boy!
But i don't think i will disrespect a guy for chasing the girl! I feel sorry for him ...
Watch this k-movie - ~ Love at Sarangbang ... because thats a really good example of a guy who chases and got nothing at the end! But.. deserves respect!!
But people do chase because they hoping for a relationship no matter what.. even if its hopeless.. (they dont know that) thats why they keep chasing, until they convinced nothing will happen! the movie is a good example!
The girl who is being chase may lose respect for him! but im not the one being chase, maybe thats why i didnt see it in your shoes since u experienced it! ..
QUOTE (한스 ㅋㅋ @ Dec 27 2008, 04:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look at the bad ass guys. They don't get bullied, coz everyone respect them.
Why do people bully nice guys? because they know they won't fight back.
Why do they not bull the bad ass? because they'll fight back, not that they're afraid, but it's better to bully someone who won't fight back.
Why do people bully nice guys? because they know they won't fight back.
Why do they not bull the bad ass? because they'll fight back, not that they're afraid, but it's better to bully someone who won't fight back.
Just because no one fights the bully, does not mean they respect them! They just scared of them.. also bully's don't deserve respect for the way they treat people with no respect! I don't respect bully, they don't deserve it! Do you respect the bully's?
#12
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 08:56 AM
The exact reason why I don't lose face is because I don't chase after guys. It's easy to tell if someone is interested in you and if the person shows no interest at all, I just move on. If you didn't put yourself completely on the line, there's no reason to lose respect or self esteem.
A lot of guys I know use the same tactic... how do I know? 'Cause they used it on me! They asked me to hang out a few times in group activities, I didn't go... they got the hint and stopped trying to talk to me 24/7.
A lot of guys I know use the same tactic... how do I know? 'Cause they used it on me! They asked me to hang out a few times in group activities, I didn't go... they got the hint and stopped trying to talk to me 24/7.
#13
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 02:40 PM
there are methods to chasing that wont downgrade your status like that. but for girls... dont chase... lure...lol
how will you grow old and mature if you arent young and wild!!
"life is too short to wake up in the morning with regrets. so love the people who treat you right, forget about the ones who dont, and believe that everything happens for a reason. if you get a chance, take it. if it changes your life, let it. nobody said it'd be easy, they just promised it'd be worth it."
"life is too short to wake up in the morning with regrets. so love the people who treat you right, forget about the ones who dont, and believe that everything happens for a reason. if you get a chance, take it. if it changes your life, let it. nobody said it'd be easy, they just promised it'd be worth it."
#14
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:17 PM
QUOTE
If u watch alot of k-dramas.. you see that the leading guy.. they never chase the girl.. they just click bcoz of all the things that happen.. but no one was chasing anyone! So yeah i see where u coming from!...
If you watch a lot of anime, you'll see that the leading guy doesn't have to chase the girl cause he's naturally covered in sparkles, magical aura, and shoots lasers out of his fingers. And if he's outnumbered, the probability of enemy-fire hitting the protagonist is inversely proportional to the number of enemies there are, whereas the probability of the enemies lining up in a straight line to get owned in a single shot is directly proportional to their number.
And we all know the lead character always gets the girl in the end, except shinn asuka.
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:28 PM
QUOTE (Shikabane Hime @ Dec 27 2008, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you watch a lot of anime, you'll see that the leading guy doesn't have to chase the girl cause he's naturally covered in sparkles, magical aura, and shoots lasers out of his fingers. And if he's outnumbered, the probability of enemy-fire hitting the protagonist is inversely proportional to the number of enemies there are, whereas the probability of the enemies lining up in a straight line to get owned in a single shot is directly proportional to their number.
And we all know the lead character always gets the girl in the end, except shinn asuka.
And we all know the lead character always gets the girl in the end, except shinn asuka.
lol, but k-drama is more realistic than anime!! anime is base on fantasy!
watch ~ Love at Sarangbang .. because it supports my argument!
is there any u recommend? ..
#16
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:30 PM
No, k-drama is based on fantasy. Romantic fantasy
That's why they're too perfect. How can the guy coincidentally die from cancer after he gets the girl? That doesn't happen IRL.
That's why they're too perfect. How can the guy coincidentally die from cancer after he gets the girl? That doesn't happen IRL.
#17
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:36 PM
QUOTE (Shikabane Hime @ Dec 27 2008, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, k-drama is based on fantasy. Romantic fantasy
That's why they're too perfect. How can the guy coincidentally die from cancer after he gets the girl? That doesn't happen IRL.
That's why they're too perfect. How can the guy coincidentally die from cancer after he gets the girl? That doesn't happen IRL.
Not all of them is base on fantasy! Even if it is, there's always a similar situation that happens in real life that you can relate too the drama! .. the one i recommend is a movie, so its short! and its more realistic because you can see it happening in real life!
#18
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:41 PM
Anime isn't based on fantasy either. Japan's building gundams.
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:45 PM
QUOTE (Shikabane Hime @ Dec 27 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anime isn't based on fantasy either. Japan's building gundams.
lol, that is fantasy! because they not real!
well, im in a love & relationship thread, so that is why im referring to a romantic k-movie that relates to my topic, its appropriate!
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 04:04 PM
QUOTE
Anime isn't based on fantasy either. Japan's building gundams.
^ LOL
QUOTE
Yeah! I must say i agree with you!
There are guys who chase and they got the girl! But not always successful!
If u watch alot of k-dramas.. you see that the leading guy.. they never chase the girl.. they just click bcoz of all the things that happen.. but no one was chasing anyone! So yeah i see where u coming from!...
After they together.. dating would jsut be normal!
and when u watch the drama, there's always going to be some love triangle - the 1 who chases.. doesn't get the girl/boy!
But i don't think i will disrespect a guy for chasing the girl! I feel sorry for him ...
Watch this k-movie - ~ Love at Sarangbang ... because thats a really good example of a guy who chases and got nothing at the end! But.. deserves respect!!
But people do chase because they hoping for a relationship no matter what.. even if its hopeless.. (they dont know that) thats why they keep chasing, until they convinced nothing will happen! the movie is a good example!
The girl who is being chase may lose respect for him! but im not the one being chase, maybe thats why i didnt see it in your shoes since u experienced it! ..
There are guys who chase and they got the girl! But not always successful!
If u watch alot of k-dramas.. you see that the leading guy.. they never chase the girl.. they just click bcoz of all the things that happen.. but no one was chasing anyone! So yeah i see where u coming from!...
After they together.. dating would jsut be normal!
and when u watch the drama, there's always going to be some love triangle - the 1 who chases.. doesn't get the girl/boy!
But i don't think i will disrespect a guy for chasing the girl! I feel sorry for him ...
Watch this k-movie - ~ Love at Sarangbang ... because thats a really good example of a guy who chases and got nothing at the end! But.. deserves respect!!
But people do chase because they hoping for a relationship no matter what.. even if its hopeless.. (they dont know that) thats why they keep chasing, until they convinced nothing will happen! the movie is a good example!
The girl who is being chase may lose respect for him! but im not the one being chase, maybe thats why i didnt see it in your shoes since u experienced it! ..
I always think that if the guy eventually gets the girl, then it's probably pity for the guy. Just my opinion lol
er.. yes I do watch a lot of dramas but if you depend on dramas too much, reality bites you in the butt.. BIG TIME
If the girl isn't interested, there is no hope. You can't just pin someone down and force them to like you. It doesn't work that way.
♥______Although it’s a beautiful day, why is that only tears fill my eyes?☆
______________________________________________©VengeanceDoll
