[avant-garde]

Do you believe in sharing the wealth, if it were to somehow work? Let's say that it's a given that socialist measures actually do work in this world, and that everyone becomes equal and look after each other, and private property becomes abolished, all the while people maintain their individuality. How does one justify capitalism if this were to be possible? Would you allow yourself to give up wealth or gain wealth (depending where you are in comparison to the average person) in order to achieve this utopia where it is assumed that most people can be happy (greatest good for the greatest amount of people)?

[Wayves]

It's been tried many times.

It doesn't work.

[Phaze5ive]

So in your socialist/communist utopia, you would be happy if a doctor made as much as a garbage man (or sanitation engineer if you prefer to be PC)? Why the hell am I bothering to go to a university then? I can slack off all day and still get mine.

Did Obama inspire you to this? I'm just asking because of your avatar.

[erure]

I think if that was possible, it would have been done already.

[avant-garde]

God dammit I'm asking a hypothetical question, don't you get it?

[Laxntiga]

NO but Obama does. Socalism Ahoy!

[Pogichinoy]

No. I don't want to share my wealth after working smart and working hard. There are selfish people in the world that like to sow what they reap, and I am one of those selfish people.

[moot11]

Most of you are referring to Utopian Socialism (where everyone is completely equal in all respects), which Obamma does not advocate, nor does most contemporary socialists.

Socialists believe that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among the elite and creates an unequal society, where not everyone has the same opportunities. Therefore socialists advocate for a society where power and wealth is based on the AMOUNT of work expended in production. Socialism does not strive to obtain equal pay for different services rendered, but equality in terms of opportunity, politics, economic and social rights, through public or state ownership, administration/distribution of goods.

[Wayves]

Okay, but it still doesn't work.

[little mixed girl]

if the people in this world are guaranteed to be happy, have excellent health care, etc, then i don't think it would be such a sacrifice.

however, i do think that no matter how happy people are, they are going to want to have more of something than the people around them. maybe it's tvs or pasta or whatever.

also, i don't get why people assume that everyone with a high education automatically has a high income...and that there aren't people with high education levels who have to do "dirty work" for various reasons.
it's one thing when you have a person who is not interested in working and only cares about taking asking for $$$.
it's another when you have someone who wants to work, but can't.

even though i don't like the huge amount of money being taken out of my paycheck for taxes, i know that it's helping people, and whether or not all of them are "deserving" of "my" money is not an issue for me.

[moot11]

Just curious, what is being referred to when people are saying it doesn't work?

The capitalism and socialism have different goals, so it succeeding or not, is kind of depends on what is being expected (i.e. efficiency of capitalism vs the equity of socialism).

[Temoin la Nuit]

I'd hate for everyone to be the same, to have the same opportunities, to have the same possessions. People who work harder should be rewarded appropriately. If life is a game, you can't abolish the score.

If everyone is going to get the same thing, then there's no real reason to strive for anything at all. To me, that's hell.

I'd also quit my job and do something nice and easy.. like, say, sleep on the beach all day.

Then again, I suppose in this country, we're moving more and more towards that. Y'know, Obama-esque, sharing the wealth, spreading it all around.. until the unemployed bum watching Jerry Springer in her trailer park while her ten kids run around gets half your paycheck in taxes, levies, and fees.

[Prot]

Essentially, some of the millionaires out there are profiting for doing not much of anything. They have the foundation set when they were born so all they do is run machinery to capitalize on profits IE: corporations running sweatshops in other countries and they just let the money roll in.

Ultimately the biggest dilemma is that your work effort does not directly or proportionally translate to the acquisition of goods. IE: An entrepreneur who was born in wealth has the ability to invest in property/businesses and profits exceptionally when they do good. Of course on the flip side he/she would lose $ if they didn't do well but ultimately all they had to do was invest. They didn't have to slave through school or do manual labor etc.

Another question to ask would be, how do you rate "work effort"?

[derrek]

It'd be easier to develop the mind I think

Utopia sure is a nice word! I love fruitopia!

[Temoin la Nuit]

Essentially, some of the millionaires out there are profiting for doing not much of anything. They have the foundation set when they were born so all they do is run machinery to capitalize on profits IE: corporations running sweatshops in other countries and they just let the money roll in.

Ultimately the biggest dilemma is that your work effort does not directly or proportionally translate to the acquisition of goods. IE: An entrepreneur who was born in wealth has the ability to invest in property/businesses and profits exceptionally when they do good. Of course on the flip side he/she would lose $ if they didn't do well but ultimately all they had to do was invest. They didn't have to slave through school or do manual labor etc.

Another question to ask would be, how do you rate "work effort"?

It's not a perfect system, but capitalism is the best system we have. Sure, some people are disproportionately rewarded. But in any other system, there would be systemic failure.

Let me put it this way - do you like your job? Do people around you like your job?

If it wasn't for your paycheck, do you think 90% of Americans would wake up at 7AM to go to a 10x10 cube and be surrounded by people they don't particularly like, but have to be nice to?

Hell, I'd sleep til 2PM and then drive out to the beach every day to sketch and throw back a couple beers.

[Prot]

It's not a perfect system, but capitalism is the best system we have. Sure, some people are disproportionately rewarded. But in any other system, there would be systemic failure.

Let me put it this way - do you like your job? Do people around you like your job?

If it wasn't for your paycheck, do you think 90% of Americans would wake up at 7AM to go to a 10x10 cube and be surrounded by people they don't particularly like, but have to be nice to?

Hell, I'd sleep til 2PM and then drive out to the beach every day to sketch and throw back a couple beers.

I'm not in support of communism, but what we (the U.S.) have going right now is capitalism being regulated by the government, an attempt to appropriate the disproportionate capitalist system that rewards those who maximize their benefits even at the cost of others. And the extent of the taxation hasn't even been announced yet, yet everyone is ready to call Obama a commie the moment one hears a tax hike on the wealthier people in which some are ultimately abusing capitalism for their profits. Tax brackets has technically always been "communist" in nature as people are paying different taxes depending on their income yet have the same access to these public constructs and services paid for using these taxes. I love the way people still jump at communism yet don't realize that the U.S. has always had such government regulation. We have never been a pure capitalistic state.

[Temoin la Nuit]

I'm not in support of communism, but what we (the U.S.) have going right now is capitalism being regulated by the government, an attempt to appropriate the disproportionate capitalist system that rewards those who maximize their benefits even at the cost of others. And the extent of the taxation hasn't even been announced yet, yet everyone is ready to call Obama a commie the moment one hears a tax hike on the wealthier people in which some are ultimately abusing capitalism for their profits. Tax brackets has technically always been "communist" in nature as people are paying different taxes depending on their income yet have the same access to these public constructs and services paid for using these taxes. I love the way people still jump at communism yet don't realize that the U.S. has always had such government regulation. We have never been a pure capitalistic state.

I'll be the first one to agree that a pure capitalism doesn't exist.. arguably, it never existed. But there are a number of reasons why it's impossible for a true free market state to exist, regardless of whether it'd be effective or not. Democracy, I think, is one of them. You're always going to have politicians who can easily manipulate people. Because people, as a whole, are stupid and don't care about educating themselves on the matters at hand.

Everyone has an opinion, but not a substantiated one. Ask anyone on what they think should be done about the economy, and they'll always spit something off, and fiercely believe in it - regardless of whether they're an economist, a trash collector, or a barista.

People are too easily led like sheep by democrats who rally mantras of change and additional spending. Not all change is good, and not all additional spending is productive.

That being said though, I think it's irrefutable that Obama is taking us towards a decidedly more socialist path. Would anyone - democrat or republican - argue that he doesn't lean to the left?

[Phaze5ive]

"In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other."
-- Voltaire

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."
-- Winston Churchill

"A government policy to rob Peter to pay Paul can be assured of the support of Paul."
-- George Bernard Shaw

"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."
-- Ayn Rand

"To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.'"
-- Thomas Jefferson

"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."
-- G. Gordon Liddy

"Collectivism doesn't work because it's based on a faulty economic premise. There is no such thing as a person's 'fair share' of wealth. The gross national product is not a pizza that must be carefully divided because if I get too many slices, you have to eat the box. The economy is expandable and, in any practical sense, limitless."
-- P. J. O'Rourke, "How to Explain Conservatism"

Socialism is only cool when it paves my roads and puts out the fire on my house. Any more than that is too much for me.

[avant-garde]

People who work harder may earn more $$$, but do people who work harder deserve greater happiness?

[Prot]

People who work harder may earn more $$$, but do people who work harder deserve greater happiness?

You are assuming $ directly correlates to happiness, but why shouldn't they? Are you suggesting that a person who does nothing but eat and sleep deserves equal happiness as one who eats and sleeps but also cleans up the other's mess?