[avant-garde]

When faced with an obstacle, Buddha never worried himself over it. The wisest option for him was to let go of his desires and accept what he was given as destiny. He realized that all suffering stemmed from a desire for opportunity: a desire that was beyond reach or meaningless. When he realized that obstacles could be avoided from the beginning, he was able to achieve a purer state of happiness.

Other philosophers since Buddha's time have attested to his observations as well. Democritus, an ancient Greek philosopher, claimed that he "would rather discover the truth than obtain the kingdom of Persia." By claiming this, he said that he could imagine himself to be much happier with what he had at the moment rather than what he could have had if he were to struggle for something beyond his means.

Curious psychologists have tried to prove ancient wisdom through modern research. Barry Schwartz wrote in his book The Paradox of Choice about the difference in happiness between "maximizers" and "satisficers". Maximizers constantly try to achieve and measure themselves against their past, while satisficers are content with what they are given and see it as a gift to them. Although maximizers tend to be more successful and overcome greater obstacles, they tend to be more depressed on average than the one who is able to settle for less.

The American dream has ingrained the ideal that success is the ultimate goal in many people's lives. However, avoiding unnecessary obstacles while being able to sustain oneself has been proven to lead to the greater happiness. It seems that contentment is measured by the state of mind and not by how much one can achieve.

[derrek]

I think this isn't promoted more because... umm... people want money. They rely on peoples naivety to suck their money, dreams and happiness away. The whole needs a MAJOR rehaul...

I vote avant-garde to be in charge.

[Prot]

If there is no drive, whats the difference between sitting around idling your life till death and just dying? If there is no struggle in life, what is the point of living it? If everyday was a happy day, and there was no conflict ever, what is the point? Would you rather be in a story where every day is just dandy or a story that has struggles, triumphs, highs and lows, not monotonous? Who wants to hear a story about a man who walks into a store and buys a candy bar as opposed to a story about a man who struggled to get money for a candy bar only to lose it and then find it again and then get to the candy store to find that it is closed then have to journey across town to the other candy store?

Up to your interpretation but I find happiness in discontentment, in achievement, in pursuing something. What is life without goals? Not a life to me. If you find idling around to death sufficient then so be it.

Here is another quick example:
You are playing an RPG in which the task is to beat all 8 gym leaders and collect all 8 badges. You catch your first pokemon, pidgey. You talk to professor oak and you get your first pokemon, and now you say I am content with what I have. Now what is the point of playing the game any further if you don't aspire to do anything else in the game? Say I have an aspiration to catch 1000 caterpie. One may question my goal of catching 1000 caterpie but that is my aspiration, it is a drive to still play the game. If I am simply content with owning the single pokemon that professor oak gave me, why would I play the game any further? I already achieved the goal of getting one single pokemon.

[dnc2]

True, when there is no drive there's no meaning in life. We can't function well without goals. People without goals tend to have existencial issues and yerning for a better life, without knowing how to get there.
Life would be boring if there were no challenges, if there were no tests to prove ourselves we can move forward. Things would be taken for granted and we would never learn their meaning.
Competition. we need it. we need to suffer a little bit to know how things work.we need to know if we can do better. at least to survive another day and garantee food on the table for next day. we need to also know ourselves and that's the only way to do it.

However there's a limit to everything. A little too much and we can reach the point where people overwork, grow stress issues and tend to develop an arrogant/angry/self-destructive attitude, where everything is related to a "me" subject and not the society itself. what good can come from that?
In my opinion, we have to persuit what we want, fight for it but at the same time we have to balance with what we have and settle our priorities. i can ask for the impossible, but untill i get there i'm not going to curse the situation i'm in and turn my life into a leaving hell. If i don't appreciate what i have now. i'll end up losing it someday and i will wonder/torture and wish i could have enjoyed my situation more at that time.

It's better to learn from experiences and faults and fight harder the next time.
so yea. there is a middle term between "maximizers" and "satisficers"
there are people who won't be a workaholic and die miserably alone but still work hard enough to be satisfied.


And it's defenately not about a "story" to be told. that's just being dependent on others' approval and sad. one should satisfy him/herself first before showing to the world what they are made of. want to be a hero? that's what it's all about? then no, one can never be a "hero" that way.
who wants to hear about some1 who just wanted to act greedy?

[Prot]

And it's defenately not about a "story" to be told. that's just being dependent on others' approval and sad. one should satisfy him/herself first before showing to the world what they are made of. want to be a hero? that's what it's all about? then no, one can never be a "hero" that way.
who wants to hear about some1 who just wanted to act greedy?

What is a journal? A story about your life. Do you share your journal? I don't.

[dnc2]

you did mention about stories. i just carried on that thought
and no! i don't have a journal

[Temoin la Nuit]

I think this isn't promoted more because... umm... people want money. They rely on peoples naivety to suck their money, dreams and happiness away. The whole needs a MAJOR rehaul...

I vote avant-garde to be in charge.

I can't imagine a more dreadful hell than a stasis like that, where no one has any goals.

The reason an lazy "enlightened" society like that can never exist, is that while everyone was taking their afternoon naps, a small elite group of angry people, pissed off at everyone's complacency, would rob you all.

To make money in this world is a beautiful struggle.

[avant-garde]

If there is no drive, whats the difference between sitting around idling your life till death and just dying? If there is no struggle in life, what is the point of living it? If everyday was a happy day, and there was no conflict ever, what is the point? Would you rather be in a story where every day is just dandy or a story that has struggles, triumphs, highs and lows, not monotonous? Who wants to hear a story about a man who walks into a store and buys a candy bar as opposed to a story about a man who struggled to get money for a candy bar only to lose it and then find it again and then get to the candy store to find that it is closed then have to journey across town to the other candy store?

Up to your interpretation but I find happiness in discontentment, in achievement, in pursuing something. What is life without goals? Not a life to me. If you find idling around to death sufficient then so be it.

Here is another quick example:
You are playing an RPG in which the task is to beat all 8 gym leaders and collect all 8 badges. You catch your first pokemon, pidgey. You talk to professor oak and you get your first pokemon, and now you say I am content with what I have. Now what is the point of playing the game any further if you don't aspire to do anything else in the game? Say I have an aspiration to catch 1000 caterpie. One may question my goal of catching 1000 caterpie but that is my aspiration, it is a drive to still play the game. If I am simply content with owning the single pokemon that professor oak gave me, why would I play the game any further? I already achieved the goal of getting one single pokemon.

The thing is, life has proven that the people with only one pokemon can be much happier than those who have more, metaphorically speaking.

[Prot]

The thing is, life has proven that the people with only one pokemon can be much happier than those who have more. Metaphorically speaking.

Well if that is how people want to play the game, I'm not denying them of playing the game where they only get their starter pokemon from professor oak, then sit in Pallet town until the gameboy runs out of batteries. I'm just saying I would rather have a goal in the game that would span me the duration of the battery power. And you can't compare happiness. There is no measurement for it.

[avant-garde]

Well if that is how people want to play the game, I'm not denying them of playing the game where they only get their starter pokemon from professor oak, then sit in Pallet town until the gameboy runs out of batteries. I'm just saying I would rather have a goal in the game that would span me the duration of the battery power. And you can't compare happiness. There is no measurement for it.

Well, according to the studies, you can. They found that people who have a tendency to achieve are actually more depressed on average, many have higher suicide rates, etc. Also, brain scans show different parts light up, and Buddhist monks have been proven by this method to be the happiest. Check out "Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz or "Flow" by Mihalyi Czikszentmihalyi

If the psychologists and their studies by chance are completely wrong, and any kind of lifestyle can lead to the same happiness, then why go the stress route? Why not go for the path that allows you to not worry about things yet get the same out of life?

[Prot]

If the psychologists and their studies by chance are completely wrong, and any kind of lifestyle can lead to the same happiness, then why go the stress route? Why not go for the path that allows you to not worry about things yet get the same out of life?

Please re read my previous post. A life without struggle, the achievements don't mean anything.
Ex: Being born into wealth as opposed to working for it.
Ex2: Being given a hw assignment that you got your brother to complete for you that gets an A as opposed to the feeling of satisfaction of working for hours and feeling aggravated at the hw assignment but finally completing it and then getting an A.

How does one understand what happiness is if they don't experience the opposite of happiness?

Also, thoughts may reside in the brain, but you cannot capture them with devices. You cannot capture a memory, you cannot measure happiness. Neurobiology is far from being understood.

[avant-garde]

Please re read my previous post. A life without struggle, the achievements don't mean anything.

Well, everything has a different meaning across cultures, even life. It seems that you fervently think that struggle is the meaning of life. There are many people who are fervently opposed to that view.

Also, thoughts may reside in the brain, but you cannot capture them with devices. You cannot capture a memory, you cannot measure happiness. Neurobiology is far from being understood.

I am sure that psychologists and neuroscientists understand it better than you do, and they are the ones who drew conclusions from "measuing happiness". There are many correlations in the brain that are easy to recognize.


Aside from that, do you really think that a person who is struggling and stressing out to a much higher degree has a greater sense of happiness than you do? Look at investment bankers, although they achieve the most and are one of the wealthiest people in the country, most of them are reported to be drowning in their own stress. Do they have the right to look down upon you just because they can double your working hours? Should a person's value be measured solely by how much they can produce?

[Mattsanity]

wish I had peace in mind for one day. sad john teshing life...

[Phaze5ive]

Can I have all your mini cooper then?

[2redJake]

Please re read my previous post. A life without struggle, the achievements don't mean anything.
Ex: Being born into wealth as opposed to working for it.
Ex2: Being given a hw assignment that you got your brother to complete for you that gets an A as opposed to the feeling of satisfaction of working for hours and feeling aggravated at the hw assignment but finally completing it and then getting an A.

How does one understand what happiness is if they don't experience the opposite of happiness?

Also, thoughts may reside in the brain, but you cannot capture them with devices. You cannot capture a memory, you cannot measure happiness. Neurobiology is far from being understood.

Prot, I understand what you're saying, and I tend to partly agree, but to say "a life without struggle, the achievements don't mean anything" seems to be an over-simplification of things. It's hard to discuss anything like this in general terms, but let me give you a hypothetical example:

Let's say there is an heiress who inherits billions and then proceeds to donate most of her fortune to worthy causes, leaving herself just enough money to ensure a comfortable existence.

She will not have struggled in life but will have achieved something of the highest calibre.

There are many other examples I can think of where "a life of struggle" doesn't necessarily equate to a meaningful life.

Read this article:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/takeonestep/depres...ces-philip.html

I've read other reports where they mention the rate of clinical depression among fortune 500 ceos as high as 75%.

I agree that struggle could lead to a meaningful and a contented life. But for many others, that clearly is not the answer.

[2redJake]

The American dream has ingrained the ideal that success is the ultimate goal in many people's lives. However, avoiding unnecessary obstacles while being able to sustain oneself has been proven to lead to the greater happiness. It seems that contentment is measured by the state of mind and not by how much one can achieve.

I agree with what you're saying. You have take an honest assessment of who you are and what will make you happy, and not worry about the opinions of others. Here's a Time magazine article on this very topic which echoes what you're saying:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...15902-2,00.html

Here's an interesting quote from this article: "Take wealth, for instance, and all the delightful things that money can buy. Research by Diener, among others, has shown that once your basic needs are met, additional income does little to raise your sense of satisfaction with life."

[Prot]

I agree that struggle could lead to a meaningful and a contented life. But for many others, that clearly is not the answer.

There is also a difference between a struggle and an obsession.

[chinkboye22]

happiness....mini cooper some ppl could be happy getting nowhere in life and just accept mini cooper for what things are..for me that is FAIL
if every human that ever existed thought like that and just were happy the way things were, we wouldn't have things we have now
this is called being naive...

i can agree to a point that everyone should be glad with what they got and not take it for granted, but seriously that is just taking it to the extreme

[2redJake]

happiness....mini cooper some ppl could be happy getting nowhere in life and just accept mini cooper for what things are..for me that is FAIL
if every human that ever existed thought like that and just were happy the way things were, we wouldn't have things we have now
this is called being naive...

Those things that you're talking about were given to us by people with a passion for something, a passion for science, technology, art, etc. They had a direction and a goal in life that brought meaning to their existence. If people have these passions, then great. Go for it, whatever these passions may be. I don't want to speak for avant-garde, but personally, I'm not talking about these people.

I'm talking about the countless millions (billions?) of us who don't have these passions and merely blindly follow the modern societal dictum that "more is better." This isn't our passion. It's a passion given to us by others (media, parents, friends), who have told us that we should want these things. This is why so many of us dream about living in mansions, driving a bentley, and having a job that will bring us prestige, w/o really asking, Why do I want these things?

So the question I've been asking myself is, What if the only thing I'll find at the end of this road I'm on is a weekly appointment with a shrink so I can btch about how much my life sucks? Imo, it's a worthwhile question to ask.

[derrek]

Being happy doesn't mean you set no goals and wallow in comfort... or that you experience no hardships... anyway