[Mannosuke]

Race: tangible things like physical features
Ethnicity: intangible things like culture and speech <------ very broad
Nationality: the flag on your passport

A lot of people tend to use these three terms interchangeably (similar to sex, gender and sexuality).
Although it's "just a word" a word is an idea and it's important to use the right words to properly express your thoughts, but that's irrelevant to this topic.

The purpose of this topic is to come to a concrete conclusion on the three bolded terms listed above. You can copy from the dictionary you can copy from wikipedia you can cite your textbooks or any other source it doesn't really matter. You can even provide your own idea of what the terms mean cause most ideas are a combination of various definitions

EDIT:

Conclusions: ethnicity is a meaningless term. To be very precise, one must associate themselves with terms like "culture" and "heritage", not simply "ethnicity"

You may be racially asian. You may have a chinese heritage, but if you know nothing about the chinese culture and you've been assimilated into the american culture, this is how you will describe yourself:

race: asian (very, very broad. This is not set in stone)
heritage: chinese
culture: american
Nationality: american

No confusion whatsoever.

[Malice_Kaiser]

Haha, as far as I can see, you already posted a fairly concrete definition. Doesn't get any more simple than that. The only thing I can say is that the one for "race" is a little TOO simple. IE, many African people can have features that appear Asian, or other similar cases like that. I think for arguments sake, though, people can get the picture.

Race - physical features, usually from a common region or continent, "white" or "black" or "Asian" I consider race. Labeling for race is really just a matter of convenience, IMO, but people always get so uptight about it anyway.
Ethnicity - Your culture, what lineage you're from. More specific than race. "Korean," "Navajo," "Argentinian." Etc etc etc.
Nationality - By far the simplest, in my opinion. It's the country you are officially a citizen of.It has no relation to race or to ethnicity. You can be a Mexican person but if you grew up and lived in Japan your whole life and are a citizen thereof, you are of Japanese nationality.

So for example, a man from Indonesia (his whole family line has originated from there) moves to the United States and becomes a citizen. His race is Asian, his ethnicity is Indonesian, his nationality is American.


These aren't taken from anywhere though, it's just my definitions I've learned over the years and how it makes most sense to me.

[Mannosuke]

But if they have features that appear asian, wouldn't they be asian?
And what about the white africans? The ones we don't consider to be "african" cause of how history played out?

And then there's the whole "asian" thing. That's a pretty broad label, considering how big asia is. And if you want to say "east" asian or "south" asian then it depends on where you draw your borders and where you place the origin. Maybe china? lol

[Malice_Kaiser]

But if they have features that appear asian, wouldn't they be asian?
And what about the white africans? The ones we don't consider to be "african" cause of how history played out?

Well, no on the first sentence, that's why I said "region" and such. Most of it is just speculation and stuff, there really are no concrete rules to follow when defining "race."
And as for white Africans, they are African as far as nationality goes, but if their family is originally British or French as many cases go, then they are ethnically British or French.

And then there's the whole "asian" thing. That's a pretty broad label, considering how big asia is. And if you want to say "east" asian or "south" asian then it depends on where you draw your borders and where you place the origin. Maybe china? lol

I agree that "Asian" is an extremely broad label. There's nothing wrong with being more specific and saying "Southeast Asian."


Like I said though, nothing is concrete with race. Nationality and ethnicity are much easier, I think. But also like I said, race is supposed to be broad and convenient. If you got robbed by a white guy, it should be socially acceptable to say "he was white" and not have to be bothered with "But the term 'white' is too broad." Same goes for Asian and African and Hispanic and whathaveyou.

[Mannosuke]

The "British" ethnicity. That's an interesting concept. Definitely, british people and french people share their own cultures and customs, and we refer to them as "british" or "french" respectively. So technically nationality is used to represent one's ethnicity.

Now comes the real problems: america and canada (and australia).
You can be racially asian, but then what would your ethnicity be? You can say your nationality is american or canadian or australian, but what about ethnicity?

I'd say american ethnicity, but many people disagree and say it doesn't exist. Just cause you LOOK asian, doesn't mean you live some asian culture.

If ethnicity includes culture, then you are in the end the AMERICAN ethnicity.
Race is boring, it's very subjective. Ethnicity tends to be more specific, but it's in no way any easier lol

[Malice_Kaiser]

The "British" ethnicity. That's an interesting concept. Definitely, british people and french people share their own cultures and customs, and we refer to them as "british" or "french" respectively. So technically nationality is used to represent one's ethnicity.

Sorry, I actually meant "English." That was my bad. But of course there is an English ethnicity. The English and French cultures are two different things. Saying they share their cultures and thus nationality is the same as ethnicity is ridiculous. That'd be like saying Japanese and Korean cultures are separates is an "interesting concept" as well. It's nothing new.
I am ethnically Irish, period. Not Scottish, not French, there is a difference.

Now comes the real problems: america and canada (and australia).
You can be racially asian, but then what would your ethnicity be? You can say your nationality is american or canadian or australian, but what about ethnicity?

If you're racially Asian but an American citizen then that goes right back to my other examples. Your nationality is American/Canadian like you said, but your ethnicity would be wherever your family is from, even if you have to trace the lineage back a hundred years.

I'd say american ethnicity, but many people disagree and say it doesn't exist. Just cause you LOOK asian, doesn't mean you live some asian culture.

Of course an American ethnicity exists, but not in the way you mean. There are Native Americans and Inuit cultures. Those are the only true American ethnicities in my opinion. Whether you're Asian but not actually in an Asian culture doesn't matter, you're not an ethnic American. Same goes for white people or black people or any people.

Immigrants (including the original setllers of the Americas) will have to have been here more than just a few hundred years to be meritted their own brand new ethnicity, if they ever are.

If ethnicity includes culture, then you are in the end the AMERICAN ethnicity.
Race is boring, it's very subjective. Ethnicity tends to be more specific, but it's in no way any easier lol

I still think ethnicity is easier for me

[Mannosuke]

I may have phrased it the wrong way but it was supposed to lead into the following point

If you're racially Asian but an American citizen then that goes right back to my other examples. Your nationality is American/Canadian like you said, but your ethnicity would be wherever your family is from, even if you have to trace the lineage back a hundred years.

Where your parents are from is irrelevant. That's only an excuse to promote difference between people based on how they LOOK, or their race.

On these forums, there's this whole "white-wash" or "banana" or "fob" terms going around. "White-wash" (for which people have not given me some sort of description) is defined as being integrated into the american society (because most people here are american). So if you're white-wash, it doesn't matter if you LOOK asian, you're still of the american culture.

Native americans don't matter. Inuit don't matter. That's why people even take the effort to label them as "native" or any other name. "True" ethnicities are irrelevant and of no importance unless you're a historian. The current america as of 2009 is what I call the american culture, not the america 1000 years ago. That's age old history and shouldn't even be considered political correctness. But to be precise and to take into account your point, I will call the current american culture as the 2009-american culture for the rest of this post.

Ethnicity is defined by intangible traits as you have pointed out in the first post, so it doesn't matter if you're racially asian or "white" or "black", if you have been assimilated into the 2009-american culture you are ethnically 2009-american because you speak the way the locals do and you celebrate what the locals celebrate.

PS: Fob is already used incorrectly by any standard on these forums. White-wash is also pretty vague and people don't bother explaining it to me, but they themselves probably have no clue what they're saying either. Banana I guess could be understood, but that mainly focuses on your culture vs your race.

The reason why concrete definitions must be laid out before this topic is even discussed is because statements like the following

Whether you're Asian but not actually in an Asian culture doesn't matter, you're not an ethnic American. Same goes for white people or black people or any people.

Require us all to agree on what the differences between the three terms are, and your race in no way determines your ethnicity.

[Malice_Kaiser]

I may have phrased it the wrong way but it was supposed to lead into the following point

Where your parents are from is irrelevant. That's only an excuse to promote difference between people based on how they LOOK, or their race.

No, it's to promote difference between people based on where they're FROM, which happens to usually include looks, but that's incidental.

On these forums, there's this whole "white-wash" or "banana" or "fob" terms going around. "White-wash" (for which people have not given me some sort of description) is defined as being integrated into the american society (because most people here are american). So if you're white-wash, it doesn't matter if you LOOK asian, you're still of the american culture.

I understand that you're still of the American culture, but that doesn't make you less of the Korean or Spanish or Russian heritage and ethnicity, even if that's not what you IDENTIFY with. I didn't say ethnicity was ONLY culture, I said it was also lineage. Let me rephrase then and say that nationality also includes culture, not necessarily the culture you're from, but most likely the one you identify with because that's where you live.

Native americans don't matter. Inuit don't matter. That's why people even take the effort to label them as "native" or any other name. "True" ethnicities are irrelevant and of no importance unless you're a historian. The current america is what I call the american culture, not the america 1000 years ago. That's age old history and shouldn't even be considered political correctness.

So what are you going to refer to yourself if you live in america? "new americans"? No, I'll just stick with american.

I find this extremely offensive. You do realize Native Americans aren't extinct, right? They're dwindling in numbers but only because settlers came and forced them off their land and damn near exterminated them. To say they don't matter is incredibly ignorant. People label them as "Native" because no one takes the time to learn the difference between the different tribes, so they can't possibly get into the specifics and and call a Sioux Indian by their tribe, and a Navajo by their tribe. Instead they group them into one broader label, "Native Americans." Whether that's a good or bad thing is up for opinion and doesn't matter.
It's not old age history, it's still happening NOW. There are Native American reservations NOW. And even so, people who started settling here, what, 500 years ago? Culture goes back THOUSANDS of years. The Egyptians had flourishing culture is the 2000s BC. 500 years is not all that long ago.

You can call yourself American, that's fine, that's another reason people use the term "Native American" in order to differentiate. It doesn't mean you're still not Irish or whatever other ethnicity you wanna throw out there.

Ethnicity is defined by intangible traits as you have pointed out in the first post, so it doesn't matter if you're racially asian or "white" or "black", if you have been assimilated into the current american culture you are ethnically american because you speak the way the locals do and you celebrate what the locals celebrate.

No, if you are assimilated into the current American culture you are American nationality-wise.

Based on your logic, if a black person from Nigeria for example is assimilated into Chinese culture, then they are Chinese ethnically. So you agree with that too? Because it is a direct equivalent. And I don't agree with it, I'd argue they are still ethnically Nigerian, not Chinese.

[Mannosuke]

I understand that you're still of the American culture, but that doesn't make you less of the Korean or Spanish or Russian heritage and ethnicity, even if that's not what you IDENTIFY with. I didn't say ethnicity was ONLY culture, I said it was also lineage. Let me rephrase then and say that nationality also includes culture, not necessarily the culture you're from, but most likely the one you identify with because that's where you live.

Heritage can be grouped with lineage.
Take for example a chinese man born in america that speaks english and his parents speak english and they do whatever americans do and don't really know much about the chinese culture or the language or anything that you call "chinese".

He is still CHINESE due to his family lineage, but he probably doesn't identify himself as chinese either.
Are you chinese just because your parents are chinese? That's ridiculous, if I put you in a room full of chinese people that recently immigrated you're probably not going to be able to relate. Lineage means absolutely nothing to me when it comes to culture cause that's like saying you're supposed to act a certain way just cause you're born with a penis.

I find this extremely offensive. It's not old age history, it's still happening NOW. There are Native American reservations NOW. And even so, people who started settling here, what, 500 years ago? Culture goes back THOUSANDS of years. The Egyptians had flourishing culture is the 2000s BC. 500 years is not all that long ago.

You're taking it out of context. Native americans and inuits don't matter in the scope of this discussion, ie: just because they were here first, doesn't mean they're the dominant culture anymore. They don't matter, because when we think of america now we don't think of natives. Canada also has a bunch of natives and recently elected a new chief to represent the people, but I don't associate "canadian" culture with "native canadians"

Similarly, when we talk about taiwan most people think of the ethnic chinese that moved to taiwan and not the taiwanese aboriginals.

Their cultures are DIFFERENT and don't define the culture you associate YOURSELF with. Don't get so worked up for natives just cause they were the "true" people.

No, if you are assimilated into the current American culture you are American nationality-wise.

Based on your logic, if a black person is assimilated into Chinese culture, then they are Chinese ethnically. So you agree with that too? Because it is a direct equivalent.

YES, if a black person is assimilated into the chinese culture, then they are ethnically chinese. If a black couple was assimilated into the chinese culture and they made babies and their offsprings went to a school in china was raised in china celebrated everything they did in china speak some chinese dialect then they are nationally chinese and ethnically chinese.

I don't know what you're trying to get at. Ethnicity is already a very subjective term that encompasses way too many ideas and it's just ridiculous to identify yourself with these generalized terms.

Instead of using the term "ethnicity" I'll just stick with "culture" cause culture is more specific and DOESN'T account for "lineage"
Ethnicity and race are now obsolete terms and mean nothing to me. They are simply used to generalize and stereotype. That is all.

So to set an example, I will replace my response on the black person in china example with the term "culture" as follows:

YES, if a black person is assimilated into the chinese culture, then they are culturally chinese. If a black couple was assimilated into the chinese culture and they made babies and their offsprings went to a school in china was raised in china celebrated everything they did in china speak some chinese dialect then they are nationally chinese and culturally chinese.

Hence, I define the "american culture" as the 2009-american culture to satisfy all of your points made with regards to this "true" american ethnicity.

[Malice_Kaiser]

Heritage can be grouped with lineage.
Take for example a chinese man born in america that speaks english and his parents speak english and they do whatever americans do and don't really know much about the chinese culture or the language or anything that you call "chinese".

He is still CHINESE due to his family lineage, but he probably doesn't identify himself as chinese either.
Are you chinese just because your parents are chinese? That's ridiculous, if I put you in a room full of chinese people that recently immigrated you're probably not going to be able to relate. Lineage means absolutely nothing to me when it comes to culture cause that's like saying you're supposed to act a certain way just cause you're born with a penis.

So some people who are ethnically Chinese identify with their culture, some don't. I think it's unfair to say that some people are more Chinese than the other, even if according to their heritage they're both 100%. I consider ethnicity to be heritage and lineage and genetics, and maybe you associate with that culture and maybe you don't. I already said this though.

You're taking it out of context. Native americans and inuits don't matter in the scope of this discussion, ie: just because they were here first, doesn't mean they're the dominant culture anymore. They don't matter, because when we think of america now we don't think of natives. Canada also has a bunch of natives and recently elected a new chief to represent the people, but I don't associate "canadian" culture with "native canadians"

Similarly, when we talk about taiwan most people think of the ethnic chinese that moved to taiwan and not the taiwanese aboriginals.

Their cultures are DIFFERENT and don't define the culture you associate YOURSELF with. Don't get so worked up for natives just cause they were the "true" people.

Just because they aren't dominant anymore doesn't mean anything. It is what it is, they are the true American ethnicity and I consider everyone else of American nationality. America is a more complicated case than most because yeah, it was pretty much taken over by everyone else. It has a whole new culture of it's own, not a whole new ethnicity.

YES, if a black person is assimilated into the chinese culture, then they are ethnically chinese. If a black couple was assimilated into the chinese culture and they made babies and their offsprings went to a school in china was raised in china celebrated everything they did in china speak some chinese dialect then they are nationally chinese and ethnically chinese.

Okay, I guess that's your opinion, but I don't agree.
Like I said before, I consider ethnicity genetics and hertiage and lineage, so in this example I would consider the guy to be ethnically Nigerian and nationality Chinese. His offspring would be ethnically Nigerian and have a Chinese nationality too.

Now let's say one of the children took a severe interest in Nigerian culture and identified with Nigeria and not China, would you then say one of his kids is ethnically Nigerian and one is ethnically Chinese? I wouldn't. It doesn't make sense.

Here's another way to put it: You can change your nationality, you can't change your ethnicity.

I don't know what you're trying to get at. Ethnicity is already a very subjective term that encompasses way too many ideas and it's just ridiculous to identify yourself with these generalized terms.

Instead of using the term "ethnicity" I'll just stick with "culture" cause culture is more specific and DOESN'T account for "lineage"

Ethnicity and race are now obsolete terms and mean nothing to me. They are simply used to generalize and stereotype. That is all.

I don't think ethnicity is necessarily too generalized. What's wrong with saying "I'm Nigerian" when someone asks what heritage you are?

You can't just substitute "culture" for "ethnicity," they're two different things. You're basically taking the definition of nationality and applying it to ethnicity. So what is the difference between the two in your opinion?



The greater point I'm trying to make is if you take this Nigerian guy who lives in China with his kids, and if he robs a bank, is the bank teller supposed to think "Well this guy spoke Mandarin perfectly and was perfectly immersed in our culture, so I better tell the police he was Chinese"? Because that's how it'd go if everyone adhered to the definition you gave.

[Mannosuke]

To be precise, I will drop the term "ethnicity" from my books.
We should all do the same because the questions you raised would be forever debated because the definition of ethnicity itself would pose a contradiction in its own terms.

Ethnicity is simply a broad term that groups together culture, lineage, speech, and whatever together. Some genius decided to do things this way because it's convenient. Well, that's almost as bad as stereotyping.

So we break apart from these silly labels and specify exactly what we're referring to.

A nigerian man that associates himself with the chinese culture will be _________ nigerian and culturally chinese.
The blank would be the word that will be used to describe his heritage.

The "greater point" behind this thread is to show the flaws behind using a term such as "ethnicity"

I don't think ethnicity is necessarily too generalized. What's wrong with saying "I'm Nigerian" when someone asks what heritage you are?

You said HERITAGE, not ETHNICITY. Big difference.
Your heritage reflects absolutely nothing about who you are and I have no idea what kind of culture you associate yourself with.

[Malice_Kaiser]

You said HERITAGE, not ETHNICITY. Big difference.
Your heritage reflects absolutely nothing about who you are and I have no idea what kind of culture you associate yourself with.

Well the person didn't want to know what they associate themselves with, they want to know where their lineage originates. Rephrase my sentence then and just substitute "heritage" for "ethnicity." If someone asks him "What ethnicity are you" then you should say "I'm Nigerian" if your lineage is from Nigeria, whether you are in America or China or wherever.

If someone asked me for my ethnicity, I'd say "I'm Irish" even though I've lived in America my whole life and that's the culture I've always been immersed in.

Though for the record, I looked it up and heritage is a VERY broad term, and it can encompass genetics or culture or anything, really, so as far as my personal definitions are concerned, heritage can be part of nationality or ethnicity.



Anyway, to keep things simple, you're defining ethnicity as what culture you identify yourself with, whereas I define it as what culture/country your lineage comes from/what you are "genetically."
So yeah, "greater point" taken, except you ignored my example about the bank robbery.

[Mannosuke]

Perhaps heritage isn't the best word to use then. The idea I believe you're trying to get at is that

if your parents are chinese, then you are chinese.
If your parents are irish, then you are irish.

Hence the word "lineage"

I don't know whether genetics has anything to do with this (genetically chinese..? lol)
There SHOULD be a word that accurately describes this idea, cause the dictionaries themselves probably have conflicting definitions and filled with circular logic.

Culture is heritage, heritage is culture. That doesn't define what culture is, nor does it define what heritage is. It's very sad how some dictionaries end up this way.

Even worse, this is what I got out of dictionary.com for ethnicity

Identity with or membership in a particular racial, national, or cultural group and observance of that group's customs, beliefs, and language.

LOL that's horrible. I refuse to use words that don't accurately reflect what my thoughts are.

[Malice_Kaiser]

Perhaps heritage isn't the best word to use then. The idea I believe you're trying to get at is that

if your parents are chinese, then you are chinese.
If your parents are irish, then you are irish.

Hence the word "lineage"

I don't know whether genetics has anything to do with this (genetically chinese..? lol)
There SHOULD be a word that accurately describes this idea, cause the dictionaries themselves probably have conflicting definitions and filled with circular logic.

I know genetics is iffy, that's why I put it in quotes. I know if you look at DNA, it's basically identical from person to person (to chimpanzee even), but what I was getting at is that it's somewhat inheritted.
But yeah, you got the very basic and simplest gist of what I meant. I think ethnicity is the same whether you relate to that culture or not. But of course, nothing is concrete.

Culture is heritage, heritage is culture. That doesn't define what culture is, nor does it define what heritage is. It's very sad how some dictionaries end up this way.

Even worse, this is what I got out of dictionary.com for ethnicity



LOL that's horrible. I refuse to use words that don't accurately reflect what my thoughts are.

Yeah, I agree, that's why I didn't bother looking up anything even from the beginning, cos I know how I define it in my head. :/

Anyway, I thought of another example of what exactly I mean by ethnicity. I remember in elementary school we had what they called an "Ethnic Fair." Now I guarantee most of the kids in my class were basically completely assimilated in American culture, including myself, but we still did little booths with poster boards and presentations and foods from the cultures that our lineage is from, what I consider ethnicity. Am I wrong in saying that according to your definition, that would mean most kids in my class would just do an "American" presentation instead of a Korean or Indian or whichever one?

[Mannosuke]

But of course, nothing is concrete.

Nothing general is concrete. All of the ideas can be concrete. Even general terms like "I'm chinese" or "I'm irish" are concrete ideas. I'm strictly using it in in terms of lineage, so there are no implications.

Essentially, sure we can adopt the word "ethnicity" or "ethnic" but that means we have to decide on what idea(s) we wish to associate with it.

Anyway, I thought of another example of what exactly I mean by ethnicity. I remember in elementary school we had what they called an "Ethnic Fair." Now I guarantee most of the kids in my class were basically completely assimilated in American culture, including myself, but we still did little booths with poster boards and presentations and foods from the cultures that our lineage is from, what I consider ethnicity. Am I wrong in saying that according to your definition, that would mean most kids in my class would just do an "American" presentation instead of a Korean or Indian or whichever one?

Such an "ethnic fair" does not have to be your "own" ethnic fair. We also had similar events but people were not limited to presenting their own cultural foods and arts.

I don't think it implied "your-own-ethnic fair"

Ethnicity is an idea, not simply a word that we accept. It's not a building block word like the way most of the language is structured, it's merely a label that's slapped on a package that contains things like "culture" and "heritage"

hence to define ethnicity is to define the contents of the package.

[mikeyynguyen]

race: Asian
heritage: Vietnamese
culture: North American - Canadian
Nationality: Canadian...


EDIT - Ooops, I did not read the topic at all so I faill.

[Mannosuke]

race: Asian
heritage: Vietnamese
culture: North American - Canadian
Nationality: Canadian...


EDIT - Ooops, I did not read the topic at all so I faill.

You see, that is how someone should describe themselves.
We all have different ideas on what "ethnicity" is but we can all agree on "culture" and "heritage" so far, though "heritage" needs to be refined.

[gln]

I used to think race, ethnicity and culture were like things that were set in stone until I took a bunch of anthropology courses and a culture theory class. I do know now that there is no 1 definite definition. People have written books and scholarly articles about these topics to no end. when someone has a new theory or definition someone else will always write another book/article about it that say otherwise. there may never be a right answer