[ronmexico]

Anyone read the Wall Street Journal today? A good article about the legal market and law schools was on it today. Here's the link: http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print...6780835602.html

Although I hope this doesn't phase any of my fellow lawheads out there, just trying to put some things on perspective and understand the distortion in statistics from law schools that advertise it.

That's an important article, because the schools distort salary information (the way Tulane manipulates the data is mentioned in the article) and past articles in the WSJ and legal publications have made it seem like everyone with a JD is making six figures. It's a bad idea to take on $100K+ in debt when your career prospects aren't that good.

I don't attend law school as of yet so I can't entail much personal experience, but the first year of law school is a real ass kicker. I have had personal accounts told to me, but I mean, who doesn't see that coming? 2L and 3L of your days won't be any better since you'll be taking classes that steer you to whatever law you'd like.

2L and 3L year are actually a lot easier, especially once you have a job. They're nowhere near as stressful as the first year.

Studying abroad during law school is a no-no. Do those kind of programs before graduate school and during your UG studies. It'll be helpful. Perhaps, even before you attend law school, you can take a year or two off to refresh your brain.

As I mentioned, some people certainly do study abroad during law school. Many schools have established programs with schools in other countries; I know Columbia has a relationship with at least four programs in Asia and Europe.

[cavil.]

Most of those students who study abroad are people who want to specialize in law of that country such as E.U., Chinese, or Japanese, which I stated is a good idea to go for if he or she is going towards that direction because otherwise, it's a waste of time.

The article is an eye-opener for those heading towards law school since the numbers are crunching and the market is tightening. I hope it won't be so pessimistic when I am going to law.

What law school do you attend, ronmexico? If it was already stated in this thread previously, then I apologize since I haven't read all the pages.

[ronmexico]

Most of those students who study abroad are people who want to specialize in law of that country such as E.U., Chinese, or Japanese, which I stated is a good idea to go for if he or she is going towards that direction because otherwise, it's a waste of time.

I don't think it's a waste of time if it's something you want to do, even if it has nothing to do with the kind of law you want to practice. One of the two people I mentioned is doing M&A work with no particular emphasis on Japanese companies and the other is doing employment law, which won't involve Chinese law at all. The last two years of law school are basically a waste of time anyway; you learn almost nothing that's even remotely applicable to what you'll do as a lawyer, your grades don't matter much (unless you want to do a clerkship) and the curve is much easier so you can get by without trying. It's the last chance you're going to have to study abroad so there's no reason not to.

What law school do you attend, ronmexico? If it was already stated in this thread previously, then I apologize since I haven't read all the pages.

I'm a 3L at Columbia. I think I might have mentioned it like twelve pages back.

[LUX.]

Hi ronmexico,
I'm in the process of college apps and finalizing majors, as well as colleges, but I have a couple questions concerning law school that'd help me narrow down my college list.

1. Does the prestige of a college give one an advantage over others for getting into a good law school?

2. I know you've said that the only thing law schools really care about are gpa and lsat score, but I still want to make sure I choose a good major that would require critical thinking, or at the very least is not frowned upon by law schools. The descriptions about majors on collegeboard.com aren't very helpful, and so, I'd like your personal opinion/input if you don't mind. Do you think you could tell me which of the following majors would be easiest to get good marks in, so that I can get an impressive GPA for law schools, and also which require more critical thinking? Right now, I'm looking at American Literature, Communications&Rhetoric, and Classics. Also, I'm seeing "English Language&Literature - General", but can't find any description about what exactly it is. Do you think you can help me out?

Or even offer any suggestions on majors in the humanities that would be able to help me fluff up my GPA, as well as require critical thinking?

Thanks a bunch<3

[ronmexico]

Hi ronmexico,
I'm in the process of college apps and finalizing majors, as well as colleges, but I have a couple questions concerning law school that'd help me narrow down my college list.

1. Does the prestige of a college give one an advantage over others for getting into a good law school?

No, not really. As you mention, I've said that LSAT and GPA are what really matter, and it's true. It's not something you should worry about when you're trying to decide where to go.

2. I know you've said that the only thing law schools really care about are gpa and lsat score, but I still want to make sure I choose a good major that would require critical thinking, or at the very least is not frowned upon by law schools. The descriptions about majors on collegeboard.com aren't very helpful, and so, I'd like your personal opinion/input if you don't mind. Do you think you could tell me which of the following majors would be easiest to get good marks in, so that I can get an impressive GPA for law schools, and also which require more critical thinking? Right now, I'm looking at American Literature, Communications&Rhetoric, and Classics. Also, I'm seeing "English Language&Literature - General", but can't find any description about what exactly it is. Do you think you can help me out?

Or even offer any suggestions on majors in the humanities that would be able to help me fluff up my GPA, as well as require critical thinking?

Thanks a bunch<3

Of those majors, the only one I would say to avoid is "communications & rhetoric." That won't impress any law admissions people. What schools are you applying to? Some schools don't make you declare a major until your sophomore year, so you would have a chance to see what interested you before deciding. As for which ones are easier, that's going to vary from school to school and even from professor to professor within departments at the same school. There were a couple of English professors at my school who were incredibly harsh graders and regularly gave C's, while it was difficult to get worse than a B+ from some of the other professors in the department. It will also depend heavily on what your particular strengths and interests are, which again you may not even really know until you've been at college for a while.

[JinYoo]

im a junior in college. although my major is accounting, will it matter much when applying? i took some extra classes which is why I'll finish college after 3 years instead of the usual 4. However, im thinking about mastering in accounting since my school has a special 1 year masters program. Would having a masters in accounting help?
my cumulative GPA is 3.7 and minor is 3.9.

just some questions.
how much do corporate lawyers get paid? entry level, i heard its somewhere from 120k and up.
what do corporate lawyers actually DO?
how are the hours like?
i live in new york, so i wanna commute which means i have probably a limited choices of colleges right? how much is the usual tuition?
law school is 3 years right?


thanks

[impromptudreams]

ronmexico, you're almost done with law school! What are your plans?

I'm a 1L, so no plans at all (and not really sure what type of law I'll be getting into eventually) -- not that any law firms are permitted to contact me anyways yet

[ronmexico]

im a junior in college. although my major is accounting, will it matter much when applying? i took some extra classes which is why I'll finish college after 3 years instead of the usual 4. However, im thinking about mastering in accounting since my school has a special 1 year masters program. Would having a masters in accounting help?
my cumulative GPA is 3.7 and minor is 3.9.

just some questions.
how much do corporate lawyers get paid? entry level, i heard its somewhere from 120k and up.
what do corporate lawyers actually DO?
how are the hours like?
i live in new york, so i wanna commute which means i have probably a limited choices of colleges right? how much is the usual tuition?
law school is 3 years right?
thanks

I don't think your major will matter too much in the application process. I don't think having a masters in accounting would play a huge role, either, but if you wanted to go into tax law, it could certainly help. It's definitely not going to hurt, that's for sure. If you want to do it, you should.

The salary varies a lot by city and the size of the firm. In NYC, the starting salary at big firms is $160K. The NALP directory has more information about salaries at different firms in different cities.

As a corporate associate, you'll probably do a lot of due diligence, which is to say that you'll review a lot of documents. Here's an article that describes a day in the life of a corporate associate: http://www.vault.com/nr/main_article_detai...0&ht_type=1

The tuition for most of the schools in NYC is around $40K. Columbia is up to $45K now. I'm not sure what you mean by a "limited choice." Obviously, if you want to stay in New York, you'd be limited to schools around here. Although there are something like seven of them in NYC, so you'd still have some choice. And yes, it's three years.

ronmexico, you're almost done with law school! What are your plans?

I'm a 1L, so no plans at all (and not really sure what type of law I'll be getting into eventually) -- not that any law firms are permitted to contact me anyways yet

I'm going to stay here in NYC work for the firm I summered at this past year. If you want to work at a big firm this summer, make sure you get your resumes out as soon as you can (i.e. send them out on November 30th). It's pretty hard to get a job with one of the big firms as a 1L, but the only people I know who did all sent their stuff out early (and they sent over 100 resumes just to get one or two interviews). It's a pretty sweet deal if you can get it, though. What school are you at?

[JinYoo]

thanks for the info and links ronmexico
how do you guys end up paying for law school? loans? so like up 120k on loans?

if you do want to work for a big firm, what do they look at when they interview/review your resume?

do firms start hiring from L1 or L2?

is there anything i should know? lol

so far, reviewing documents sounds okay~, 160k a year is worth every dime.

[ronmexico]

^^Yes, most people pay for law school with loans. There is some merit aid, but no need-based aid the way there is in college.

Firms are going to be looking primarily at what school you go to and your grades. They'll also look to see if you're on law review or another journal. And they'll see if you have any significant work experience. But they'll be primarily interested in your school and grades/rank.

Big firms generally hire 2Ls for summer associate positions, though some firms will hire a couple of 1Ls as well. 2Ls who get jobs with major firms are generally hired through on-campus recruiting, while 1Ls typically have to mass-mail their resume to firms. Summer associates almost invariably get offers to come back as full-time associates after graduation.

The salary sounds nice but it's important to consider that the hours are long and unpredictable (though tax, which I'm assuming you'd be interested in since you're an accounting major, is supposed to have more predictable hours) and not everybody can get a job with a major firm. Some graduates have trouble finding full-time jobs at all. You should definitely take a look at the WSJ article that was posted a page or so back.

[impromptudreams]

I'm at Harvard Law

"There is some merit aid, but no need-based aid the way there is in college."
I applied to Columbia too - you mean that there is some need-based aid, but not merit aid as there is in college right?
Harvard definitely doesn't give merit based-aid / scholarships.

[ronmexico]

Harvard may not, but most schools give merit aid to students with good numbers (which is to say, above average for that school). In some cases they'll even give full scholarships (like Columbia's Hamilton or Penn's Levy) that are based purely on merit.

On the other hand, law schools hardly ever give merit aid. While most top colleges promise to meet 100% of demonstrated financial need, I don't know of any law school that does. To the extent that they give need-based aid at all, it's based on different calculation of need. Colleges calculate need as the cost of attendance minus estimated family contribution, while law schools calculate it as the cost of attendance minus estimated family contribution (even though law students are generally considered independent and fewer parents pay for law school than college) and the maximum Stafford loan amount (currently $20,500).

[ronmexico]

Here's another recent article about the plight of temporary attorneys:

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=34054

[cavil.]

Here's another recent article about the plight of temporary attorneys:

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=34054

Good read. Thanks for posting it.

[meitachi]

I'm sorry if this was asked somewhere in the previous 21 pages, but I was wondering if International Entertainment Law fell primarily under the area of Intellectual Property Law or under International Law? (Or would it be International Intellectual Property, or something else entirely?)

Right now I'm an international studies & political science double major so I was first looking into International Law (in general, with an emphasis on politics), but recently I've been interested in international entertainment law--but not many law schools list that as an area, so I was curious as to whether or not it fell under Intellectual Property, which many more law schools feature as areas of expertise.

Thanks in advance~

[ronmexico]

^^I'm not really sure what you mean by "international entertainment law." I don't know if it would really be distinct from entertainment law generally, although I don't know anything about entertainment law.

The more important thing is to realize that law schools don't really "specialize" in anything. What you learn in law school is usually unrelated to what you actually do in practice, and you can practice any type of law (except patent law) as long as you have a degree and pass the bar. So you can just ignore the specialty rankings when you're looking at schools.

[delightful123]

hey thanks for all the great info you've been posting!

anyway... i'm a second year undergrad at Northwestern University (in Evanston, IL), and I've been considering law as a potential career.

This may be a somewhat difficult question to answer, but what kind of person do you think would make a good lawyer? I hear so many different things from people and from the media, such as lawyers having to be "pessimistic and cynical" and things like that. I'm sure it's just a silly generalization, but I guess I'm also asking what kind of qualities would make a good lawyer.

I enjoy interacting with people, public speaking, and writing. From what I hear, I feel that being a lawyer, what you mostly do is just research and read documents?

Also, I'm currently trying to get into the Creative Writing Program at my school, and if I don't get in, I'm just simply going to be an English Lit major. Do you think majorin in creative writing would be a hindrance? It's something I think I would enjoy... and it does require a great deal of Lit classes to fulfill the major... and it's perhaps different? What do you think?

Thanks again!!!

Btw.. i'm incredibly jealous. Columbia University! hehe~ I'd love to go there.

[ronmexico]

Well, it depends what kind of law you go into, but you're probably going to be reviewing documents most of the time. You'll probably do a fair amount of research in litigation, but much less in corporate. So I guess being detail-oriented is one of the most important traits you can have. You don't have to be a "good writer" in the traditional sense; you can be boring and repetitive as long as you're clear and precise. You would probably only do a lot of public speaking if you worked for a prosecutor or public defender's office.

I don't think majoring in creative writing will hurt you at all. Like I say, you shouldn't worry too much about law school when you're deciding what to major in.

[pamelakish]

hi i'm a 1L. here in my country law is 4yrs., quite long compared to 3yrs.

dont think this is very relevant question but i just want to ask what are some of the subjects/courses you have to get during 1L there in Columbia U.
i'd like to see if there are some similarities with what we have here.
thanks

[ronmexico]

hi i'm a 1L. here in my country law is 4yrs., quite long compared to 3yrs.

dont think this is very relevant question but i just want to ask what are some of the subjects/courses you have to get during 1L there in Columbia U.
i'd like to see if there are some similarities with what we have here.
thanks

As a 1L, you start with a two-week class called Legal Methods, which is basically an introduction to the study of law. This ends just before the normal semester begins. Fall semester, 1Ls have legal writing, contracts, torts and civil procedure. Spring semester is constitutional law, criminal law, property and one elective. You choose an elective from something like half a dozen choices; I took "Law and Social Science." The only other one I can remember is "Law and Economics." There are no required classes beyond the first year, so you choose your own schedule as a 2L and 3L.